[00:00:00] Andrew: We're live.
[00:00:01] Nathan: Okay, nice. On both Twitch and YouTube. [00:00:05] Yes.
[00:00:06] Nathan: We'll find out later if we're not
[00:00:07] Andrew: I know, right? How are you doing?
[00:00:09] Nathan: Good. [00:00:10] We're, we're doing this on a Tue- Thursday. No, I was gonna say Tuesday.
[00:00:13] Nathan: Thursday,
[00:00:13] Andrew: yeah, good point. We, [00:00:15] it is not Friday
[00:00:16] Nathan: Yeah, we've moved.
[00:00:17] Andrew: It is Thursday. Yeah, we're [00:00:20] moving the stream to Thursdays 3:30-ish [00:00:25] Pacific
[00:00:25] Nathan: Depending on when we get to it. Depending on when we get to it, yeah. We're, we're bad at, at starting on a specific [00:00:30] time, but we,
[00:00:30] Andrew: I've always been bad at that. I, and I would- I've just been screwed up all day today, [00:00:35] not being Friday. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm still getting used to it. It's [00:00:40] Thursday still. I'm, like, usually ready to do some- I usually have something that is planned that [00:00:45] we have to run away for quickly, which is why we're moving this.
[00:00:48] Andrew: But, yeah, [00:00:50] I, I think we have a couple really cool topics. So there's this kind [00:00:55] of existential dread that a lot of folks have of what
[00:00:58] Nathan: The way they started. [00:01:00] Jump right? into it.
[00:01:01] Andrew: This, this is, there's just this existential dread of just nothing [00:01:05] seems to happen fast enough or you get bogged down in,
[00:01:09] Nathan: [00:01:10] Yeah
[00:01:10] Andrew: the ick of stuff and then, talk [00:01:15] through open source science with open source hardware, which is a '
[00:01:19] Andrew: topic. [00:01:20] So
[00:01:20] Andrew: I, I think they are related 'cause I, I think the [00:01:25] latter
[00:01:25] Andrew: suffers from a lot
[00:01:26] Nathan: Yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:29] Andrew: a [00:01:30] teaser to stay
[00:01:30] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good connection. I hadn't thought about it till now. But [00:01:35] yeah, yeah. I, I've, I've talked to a few friends this past few weeks and a lot of them seem to be feeling a [00:01:40] bit stuck. We, we've talked a little bit about it before, but with [00:01:45] whatever the heck is going on throughout the world and then not really [00:01:50] understanding what the heck is going on with AI and all the stuff that people are claiming, [00:01:55] it's a very tough place to be where it seems like nothing you can predict [00:02:00] seems to make any sense anymore. And I've gotten a lot of friends who just feel a bit down about it. [00:02:05] So I was thinking through how to combat some of this stuff. [00:02:10] So they've all basically lost drive to do stuff because can't predict what's gonna happen, so why, [00:02:15] why try and do stuff? And it's that's hard.
[00:02:18] Andrew: Yeah, I
[00:02:18] Andrew: would,
[00:02:19] Nathan: [00:02:20] tips.
[00:02:20] Andrew: I, I would say that, At least in the States, and I would say the [00:02:25] trend holds for most of the world too, we are changing from an [00:02:30] era of extreme predictability into something [00:02:35] different
[00:02:35] Nathan: Almost the opposite, yeah.
[00:02:36] Andrew: Yeah. I, I don't know. I don't know, [00:02:40] like Too many people try to predict the future on this kind of stuff. I don't know what's gonna happen.
[00:02:43] Andrew: I, I [00:02:45] think the problem with a lot of people I talk to is that we're leaving the old [00:02:50] system and they don't like it. And so a lot of the, [00:02:55] observations they have, a lot of the angst is it doesn't work the way [00:03:00] that I'm used to it." no, it doesn't.
[00:03:02] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:03:03] Andrew: Sorry.
[00:03:03] Nathan: it
[00:03:04] Andrew: I, I [00:03:05] just... No, you're, you... But it's really hard for folks to grapple with that, and like specifically in [00:03:10] America, the current administration is very intent on doing things [00:03:15] differently than have been done in the past.
[00:03:16] Andrew: And you can be pro or, or, or c- against that. It, it [00:03:20] doesn't matter. The reality is that's what's happening. And you can like that it's [00:03:25] happening, and you can not like that it's happening, but the reality is that's what's happening. And it [00:03:30] looks like the rest of the world is also following this trajection.
[00:03:33] Andrew: And, and there's a [00:03:35] lot of data that is, is out there to, to talk through. We're in the midst of a big [00:03:40] generational shift. A lot of the baby boomers are retiring.
[00:03:43] Nathan: Yeah
[00:03:44] Andrew: Gen X isn't [00:03:45] big enough to really count. Sorry, Gen X. You're, you're just not. [00:03:50] Gen X is in government a little bit. They're in businesses a little bit.
[00:03:53] Andrew: But the reality [00:03:55] is it's the elder millennials who are really, running the show at this [00:04:00] point, for better or worse, or are the next kind of rung on the ladder.
[00:04:04] Andrew: And that's not [00:04:05] saying Gen Xers aren't running anything, but it's just from a, a, a [00:04:10] generational, cultural perspective, they're just completely and totally outnumbered[00:04:15]
[00:04:15] Nathan: Yeah
[00:04:16] Andrew: And so we're s- we're, we're seeing a massive shift.
[00:04:18] Andrew: And so I think part of the reason [00:04:20] it's massive is because we're skipping a generation in that the, the next [00:04:25] predominant culture coming forward is a skip. [00:04:30] The Gen Xers are also a, a kinda take your [00:04:35] lumps and go and not really scream and, and pull a bunch of attention to [00:04:40] yourselves generation.
[00:04:41] Andrew: And so I think part of it's just that temperament of [00:04:45] it's not, "Hey, look cool at all the cool I'm doing. I'm just gonna do the cool and [00:04:50] whatever."
[00:04:50] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:04:50] Nathan: happens. Yeah
[00:04:51] Andrew: They didn't really get into social media too much. They're like [00:04:55] in it or a little aware of it, but like a lot of the younger millennials and like Gen Z, like Gen Z grew up [00:05:00] on this stuff, the younger millennial folks.
[00:05:02] Andrew: I always separate the millennials 'cause it's... I feel like it's [00:05:05] too big of a generation. It's, it's always how do you slice it, but it's
[00:05:09] Andrew: It's like a [00:05:10] 20-some year difference in generation and it's like I know people who like can't run a rotary [00:05:15] phone who are in the, the millennial generation and I'm like, "What do you [00:05:20] mean?"
[00:05:20] Andrew: Or like my big thing is like pre- and post-September 11th and did you [00:05:25] grow up with internet, period, and did you ha- ever have access to internet, [00:05:30] right? It's
[00:05:30] Nathan: Pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:05:31] Andrew: yeah, I know a lot of folks in a millennial demo [00:05:35] that didn't have it at home but had it at school or like a library or [00:05:40] something and it kinda sucked but it was there and it worked, and then I know a lot of folks never really used the [00:05:45] internet and then I know folks who have never not known the internet and th- that wasn't there.
[00:05:49] Andrew: And [00:05:50] so I, I kinda think about the generation that way, so I say older and younger. And so that I [00:05:55] think like We've also usurped, so like generationally, culturally, and like [00:06:00] culture within a generation is all the you grow up with. So it's all the popular, [00:06:05] things. It's who you're raised by. This isn't anthropological by any means, but this is how I [00:06:10] think about it.
[00:06:11] Andrew: It's, and it's not to say that you can't have ideals or exposure to things in other [00:06:15] generations, but it's if you're being raised by the baby boomers, you're gonna have a [00:06:20] different experience growing up than if you were raised predominantly by silent gen [00:06:25] or the older baby boomers. And again, the baby boomers are also always lumped together.
[00:06:28] Andrew: Like I look at kind of elder and [00:06:30] younger. The folks who were literally born in the beginning of the baby boom, like during World War [00:06:35] II or the end or like right after, have a very, very different experience than someone who was born in like the [00:06:40] '50s or the late, late '50s or early '60s where it was like already booming [00:06:45] and you were born into this already booming versus this like you kinda saw it on the [00:06:50] upswing as you were getting, as you were growing up, but like your parents were Great Depression people [00:06:55] and like you never really had a lot going into it, versus your dad [00:07:00] comes back from the war and maybe your mom was working in a factory and you have a pretty good middle class [00:07:05] life.
[00:07:05] Andrew: Like you didn't have the house, but you got the house built because of all of the, the boom [00:07:10] happening, right?
[00:07:10] Andrew: So I think the perspectives matter. So it, the culture part of that is, is who's raising you and what [00:07:15] values and what, what you're going through. And there's regional cultures obviously within countries, even within [00:07:20] the world, but like pretty much everybody coming out of gen- [00:07:25] or out of in the millennial generation, outside of a few very specific [00:07:30] places, like communism was basically done at that point.
[00:07:33] Andrew: There was a lot of [00:07:35] exposure technologically. Radio was like u- ubiquitous. Like information [00:07:40] exchange is just baked into this generation. Even if you grew up in some like crazy [00:07:45] former Soviet republic where you were, didn't have anything, like everyone knew that [00:07:50] the stuff was there.
[00:07:51] Nathan: Hmm
[00:07:51] Andrew: And so the exposure is different. So there, there's a huge [00:07:55] cultural difference there. There's a huge, shift in how stuff is done and [00:08:00] built, and so like the older generation was physical, right? Everything was [00:08:05] manufactured. Now our economy is largely digital or knowledge-based, so [00:08:10] there's a, it's just a different skill set.
[00:08:12] Andrew: And so what we're seeing is we're seeing a group of people [00:08:15] who have, have kinda grown up in a totally different world still in control of companies [00:08:20] and, and governments, and they're still trying to usher in [00:08:25] rules and, and they have an operating model of how the world works that is just fundamentally incompatible [00:08:30] with reality.
[00:08:31] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:32] Nathan: Yeah. I like-- I, I like your [00:08:35] sociological take on it. It, it's funny 'cause before, before we were, before we were chatting I was [00:08:40] like you- you're more the history buff between the two of us, and you went through
[00:08:44] Nathan: the history [00:08:45] lesson of how that's affected the way things came to now. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Th- [00:08:50] that's interesting to see. And, and I think it's, there's more of a step change when it comes [00:08:55] to how things have been evolving in the past, whereas maybe it was a little more gradual. [00:09:00] It does feel like now people are seeing jumps of, perceptions of, of what they [00:09:05] thought the world was and, and what the world is turning into.
[00:09:07] Nathan: And that, that makes it really hard for people to grasp
[00:09:09] Andrew: in the, [00:09:10] the stories of success, the, like in America it's like being able to own a [00:09:15] home.
[00:09:16] Nathan: The American
[00:09:16] Andrew: It's not really attainable for a lot of people, and [00:09:20] some people are choosing not to do that, and they're choosing to not make that a dream, whereas before I don't, I [00:09:25] don't think everyone could afford a home who wanted it in like the boomer [00:09:30] generation.
[00:09:30] Andrew: But everybody aspired to that. It was just an [00:09:35] understood cultural thing of like you, you wanna own your thing and, and build it or [00:09:40] whatever. So we're seeing all this stuff kind of unravel and [00:09:45] what comes out the end, I don't know, no one can predict the future. The problem I think I, [00:09:50] I have with it and like where my angst comes from is that this doesn't really seem [00:09:55] intentional.
[00:09:55] Andrew: And, and the reason I say
[00:09:56] Andrew: that that suggesting changes in the past were [00:10:00] intentional? What do
[00:10:00] Andrew: Oh yeah, 100%. The, you look at the founding of America and they were [00:10:05] like, "We're not doing the monarchy thing
[00:10:06] Andrew: anymore," right? "We're changing it,"
[00:10:09] Nathan: Yeah, [00:10:10] yeah,
[00:10:10] Andrew: right?
[00:10:11] Andrew: "H- here's a list of what we literally don't want,
[00:10:14] Nathan: it. Sure.[00:10:15]
[00:10:15] Andrew: and then here's some ideas of what we're gonna do, and then we're gonna build this document to [00:10:20] re-change how society runs."
[00:10:22] Andrew: And not that it necessarily needs to be that formal, [00:10:25] but I think in generational shifts, we're always predicated by some [00:10:30] massive famine or war or something, in the last, you
[00:10:33] Andrew: know, six [00:10:35] generations or whatever, right? Like pre-industrialization. Industrialization was in there too, and it kind of [00:10:40] thrusted, thrusted in.
[00:10:42] Andrew: But the promise of industrialization was supposed to be a better [00:10:45] life, right? You didn't have to toil on the farm and starve because your crop died. We were gonna [00:10:50] figure out a way to have abundance. That was the, the claim. I'm not saying that's what happened, right? But, [00:10:55] like But with whatever's going on in the world now, like post-COVID, it, it doesn't feel to me at [00:11:00] least that there is a conceded plan, and I'm not really [00:11:05] sure what the better version of the future is.
[00:11:09] Andrew: And [00:11:10] so we're seeing, at least again, I can only really talk about the States 'cause that's where I live, but like the [00:11:15] administration is unraveling everything it seems like. [00:11:20] Again, can have an opinion either way or just don't care, but that's what's [00:11:25] happening, and, I don't understand what the version of that [00:11:30] future is supposed to be.
[00:11:31] Andrew: And it could be me, but I, I don't get a [00:11:35] coherent plan. I hear a lot of times there is a coherent plan, and then that's just it's... There [00:11:40] is no co- coherent plan as far as I, I can tell. So that I think [00:11:45] drives this even more unsettling 'cause you're like, "Okay, great. Let, let's just assume [00:11:50] everything is broken and we need to tear it all down and start over.
[00:11:52] Andrew: Great, what are we gonna start with? Or [00:11:55] what are we, what are we aspiring to? Like, how does this make it better for me,"
[00:11:59] Andrew: Right.
[00:11:59] Andrew: Or my [00:12:00] family or my community or however you wanna gauge success and [00:12:05] progress. I'm not hearing that. On, on the, the same side, you have all these AI crazy [00:12:10] people who are just nuts.
[00:12:13] Andrew: Like I don't know what else to say. Like [00:12:15] the, the AI is not taking your job. It is not taking over society. It is not gonna think. It is not [00:12:20] generally intelligent. It's borderline barely intelligent under [00:12:25] any measure that I can come up with. Again, I work with this sh- every [00:12:30] day, right? And I know you work with it probably every day too, and it's an amazing [00:12:35] tool, but it is so oversold, and they're trying to sell this vision of the future, and [00:12:40] OpenAI's stuff just got leaked.
[00:12:42] Andrew: And boy, I have never seen a company that [00:12:45] has been able to burn so much money in such a short amount of time [00:12:50] than that company
[00:12:51] Nathan: I deserve a, I deserve a medal for that.
[00:12:53] Andrew: SpaceX is right up [00:12:55] there too. They just IPO'd. Their, their financials are, are out. There's a lot of [00:13:00] questions I have for that too. And again, d- don't get mad, like the, the actual math [00:13:05] doesn't math.
[00:13:06] Andrew: They are spending more money than they're making, even with all the crazy funny math [00:13:10] that they're doing on depreciation and assumptions on curves and all this sh- [00:13:15] there's all this financial that I'm happy to talk about if we really wanna get into it. But it doesn't [00:13:20] math.
[00:13:20] Nathan: And i- think that's--
[00:13:21] Andrew: i- is coming out too, and I'm sure it's gonna be the same way as [00:13:25] OpenAI.
[00:13:25] Andrew: I can't imagine it's any different, right? So I'm not trying to just on OpenAI, even [00:13:30] though I'm happy to do that all day long.
[00:13:32] Nathan: We
[00:13:32] Andrew: The... But, but the problem I [00:13:35] have with it is, great, they're losing money. I don't really care. But they're trying to spin it like we're s- we're on the [00:13:40] precipice of creating this crazy utopian that [00:13:45] has never been possible before.
[00:13:47] Andrew: And Elon's in there too with xAI, which I [00:13:50] guess is now SpaceX. I don't know, I didn't really follow all that crazy train either.
[00:13:53] Nathan: technically SpaceX now,
[00:13:54] Nathan: yeah [00:13:55]
[00:13:55] Andrew: but it's just a bunch of people lying. And again, nobody has [00:14:00] asked me if that's the future that I want. Nobody... The way that these kind of [00:14:05] changes happened in the past are either, like a governance structure changes, so you like [00:14:10] elect a political establishment that changes things.
[00:14:13] Andrew: Or you have a [00:14:15] revolution, but the revolutions tend to be principled, right? You have a leader of a revolution, or you have a movement [00:14:20] of, of,
[00:14:21] Nathan: Sure
[00:14:22] Andrew: can have a confederacy of, of [00:14:25] ideas, and then generally somebody's kinda wins out. It's very rare that you have a, [00:14:30] very seldomly is it just anarchy to, to revolt a society.
[00:14:33] Andrew: it,
[00:14:33] Andrew: it...
[00:14:34] Andrew: it...
[00:14:34] Andrew: it, it... [00:14:35]
[00:14:35] Nathan: several times before, but
[00:14:36] Andrew: Yeah,
[00:14:36] Andrew: you, you, can get anarchy in the changeover of a [00:14:40] governmental system or even a, a business system, right? You get a bunch of new executives come in. Like this, all this [00:14:45] stuff is, is to me is that's just kinda how it is. But nobody elected these [00:14:50] folks. Nobody's really following them.
[00:14:51] Andrew: I'm sure there's people that are, but I think most people who aren't really in [00:14:55] tech, when I talk to them, they're just like, "What the hell's going on in AI land? Are you people [00:15:00] okay?"
[00:15:00] Andrew: Oftentimes what I get. But so they're they're, they're just lying about this [00:15:05] future. So there's a vacuum of, the lack of messaging, the lack [00:15:10] of, I think, tangible results, impact [00:15:15] stuff that matters to me.
[00:15:17] Andrew: And I think People are also really [00:15:20] seeing that energy prices have gone up quite a bit with this little Iran [00:15:25] kerfuffle. Again, you can be for or against it. The reality is the prices of stuff went [00:15:30] up, and that impacts people. And if you have a lot of money, it probably doesn't matter as much or you probably don't notice.
[00:15:34] Andrew: [00:15:35] If you don't have a lot of money, you're probably noticing the price of energy makes everything [00:15:40] go up. Food, going out to eat entertainment, travel, everything. Everything gets more [00:15:45] expensive. And it should go down theoretically. It might not. People might like the prof- [00:15:50] might like the extra margin, might like the extra profit.
[00:15:52] Andrew: Theoretically it goes down. But the reality is [00:15:55] got more expensive. And again, what am I getting out of that, right? Is what everybody asks. That's the human [00:16:00] question to ask is, "What, what am I getting out of this? Oh, now I can't fill up my car [00:16:05] with gas because it's doubled.
[00:16:08] Andrew: Now what? What do I cut?" [00:16:10] these are conversations people are actually having consciously, sometimes subconsciously. Sometimes you're like, [00:16:15] "Wow, it was 100 bucks to fill my car up. Maybe I'm not gonna go get that dinner out tonight or something," [00:16:20] right? And so I think there's a lot of this subconscious stuff that we're observing that doesn't mesh with our known [00:16:25] reality and doesn't mesh at all with what people in power or people in positions of [00:16:30] power are saying
[00:16:31] Nathan: Yep.
[00:16:32] Andrew: And
[00:16:32] Nathan: But I...
[00:16:32] Andrew: trying to, to what
[00:16:33] Nathan: Exactly. yeah
[00:16:34] Nathan: [00:16:35] ex-exactly. Yeah. And I, I think that's it. And so
[00:16:38] Nathan: [00:16:40] w-what?
[00:16:40] Andrew: We solved, we, we, we solved, we, we, we defined the problem, right?
[00:16:43] Nathan: we found the problem, [00:16:45] yeah. I, I think that's as, as much as you can say about it. We, we found the quote unquote problem, but, but the [00:16:50] solution is, is not so clear cut. And, and, yeah, talking to these people, [00:16:55] these are...
[00:16:56] Nathan: I, I think at the end of the day there's some tenets that you can go back [00:17:00] to, but, but really there's no real solution to this, right? It's sort of like,[00:17:05]
[00:17:05] Nathan: yes, you have to make those hard decisions. Okay
[00:17:07] Andrew: right? I think the social [00:17:10] media thing we've talked a lot about, but the pillar of social media amplifies [00:17:15] all of this far more than it should be
[00:17:18] Nathan: Oh, you're going, you're going in the worst [00:17:20] direction.
[00:17:21] Andrew: Yeah
[00:17:21] Nathan: I th- okay. I thought, I thought you were gonna propose something for the
[00:17:24] Nathan: positive [00:17:25] direction. Got it. Okay.
[00:17:26] Andrew: think it but, but I think in order to... The only way to solve a problem [00:17:30] is to define a problem
[00:17:31] Nathan: what it is, right?
[00:17:33] Andrew: and then change
[00:17:34] Nathan: [00:17:35] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The i- ideally don't involve the problem or, or,
[00:17:38] Andrew: Yeah. You can, you can [00:17:40] chart,
[00:17:40] Andrew: you can ch- you can change inputs of a problem and sometimes get a less bad [00:17:45] result. Maybe it doesn't fully solve what you're looking for. But social media really [00:17:50] amplifies all of this. So you, you, it amplifies the people in charge who don't seem to know what they're [00:17:55] doing or are living in a totally different world.
[00:17:57] Andrew: You could have a paper route and somehow [00:18:00] pay for college is something I hear a lot of boomer politicians in this country say, and I'm like, "That's just not real." [00:18:05] It might not have been real back then. It maybe was real. It's hard to say. Maybe it was a really, really good [00:18:10] paper route
[00:18:10] Nathan: Sure. the li- the just to put those in perspective for people in the boomer [00:18:15] audience who might be listening, it's $100,000 to go to a crappy state school [00:18:20] now on average for four years.
[00:18:22] Nathan: crab. Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:24] Andrew: Yeah, and [00:18:25] yeah like not Harvard or some Ivy League school, right?
[00:18:29] Nathan: [00:18:30] Yes those are, yeah,
[00:18:32] Nathan: right
[00:18:32] Andrew: normal college on average [00:18:35] is just any college you would go to is on average now about $100,000 to get [00:18:40] through. About half of that seems to be like room and board or like cost of living, [00:18:45] and it's really easy to say you don't need to live somewhere."
[00:18:48] Andrew: That's not real. I [00:18:50] don't know what a paper route... I should probably do the math on this, but I'm assuming a paper route does not [00:18:55] net you enough money to pay, what would that be, $25,000 a year in [00:19:00] excess?
[00:19:00] Nathan: I you're, you're mixing, you're mixing times, right? 'Cause people don't
[00:19:04] Nathan: have needs [00:19:05] for paper routes nowadays, right?
[00:19:06] Nathan: So
[00:19:06] Andrew: but my point is, is that, okay, any job, it's [00:19:10] $100,000 to go
[00:19:10] Andrew: to college for four years, 25,000 a year roughly, right? So [00:19:15] in order to pay for that,
[00:19:17] Andrew: you need a job that will net you in [00:19:20] excess $25,000 so you don't go into debt, or even [00:19:25] 20,000, right?
[00:19:25] Andrew: I I...
[00:19:26] Nathan: so you can afford school, right?
[00:19:27] Andrew: Yeah. And, and so minimum wage gets you [00:19:30] about 35K a year, so you're pretty much not even can't even work and [00:19:35] live for free and, and pay because taxes.
[00:19:37] Andrew: So you gotta be... I rough math, you'd [00:19:40] have to be making probably 120K a year and live pretty frugally and [00:19:45] have a good living situation that's not super expensive to be able to actually pay cash, quote-unquote, [00:19:50] for college. That's not real without a college degree for most people, right?
[00:19:54] Andrew: So it's if [00:19:55] it's a, the... Anyway, I, I'm digressing, but it, it's this, a point that really pisses me off because it's [00:20:00] this, it's such a deep indication that I think a lot of people in the Millennial [00:20:05] and Gen Z and Gen Alpha generation are seeing that hard work pays [00:20:10] off is right? It's just another piece of evidence.
[00:20:13] Andrew: But social media [00:20:15] amplifies this problem,
[00:20:16] Nathan: Hmm
[00:20:17] Andrew: and you, you hear these messages. You see the [00:20:20] people who are allegedly doing better than you in your age group, and yeah, there's always [00:20:25] people doing better than you, but the reality is most people are not, right? Everyb- the reality [00:20:30] is the bell curve is 25, 50, 25, and most people are not [00:20:35] doing that much better than you are.
[00:20:37] Andrew: But when you are on Instagram all the time or [00:20:40] TikTok or any number of these, YouTube, I don't really care what your platform is, it's reinforcing a [00:20:45] bunch of messages that also aren't real on top of all this other stuff, and I think everybody's just [00:20:50] in this overloaded, overstimulated, world's view at [00:20:55] this point that, It just becomes ugh at the end of [00:21:00] the day. And so I say all this because I think the way to get out of it is actually fairly [00:21:05] simple, is to stop being on social media
[00:21:07] Nathan: Yeah. I'm pushing for longer on that[00:21:10]
[00:21:10] Andrew: Get off a goddamn screen. I don't ca- my job's on a screen. When I'm done with j- [00:21:15] work, I'm done with work, right? I, I don't... I... Sometimes if I'm in the middle of some stuff, sometimes I [00:21:20] will work
[00:21:21] Andrew: Like on my phone so to speak.
[00:21:22] Andrew: But for the most part, I'm done with screens for the [00:21:25] day. But find time to just not have [00:21:30] to do is huge. Don't listen to music. Don't re- you know, maybe [00:21:35] read a book or read a magazine or something. But, the problem with that, a lot of that is, is [00:21:40] it's, any sort of periodical will reinforce [00:21:45] the problems of the moment.
[00:21:47] Nathan: sure. Yeah, yeah
[00:21:48] Andrew: And so I think the [00:21:50] better way to do that is to pick up an activity where you can get exercise or something too, pick up walking [00:21:55] or running or hiking or climbing or, something where you have to be engage- your [00:22:00] mind has to be engaged in a different modality than what you're nor- normally used to.
[00:22:04] Andrew: If your job is [00:22:05] biking don't pick up biking as a hobby, right? Pick up something else. But y- it has to [00:22:10] be something that isn't involving a screen or ideally [00:22:15] involving current events or near-term events. I, I want people to be [00:22:20] informed, but if your hobby is reading about all the shitty stuff that a political party is doing [00:22:25] that's not helping.
[00:22:26] Nathan: Yeah
[00:22:27] Andrew: And there's a lot of great Substacks in the world, there's a lot of great YouTube [00:22:30] content, but a lot of that content tends to focus in on the crap that's [00:22:35] perpetuating it, so you have to get a, you have to get out of it. And the problem with a lot of this stuff [00:22:40] too is that, you have to get a way for your mind to rest in [00:22:45] an active state.
[00:22:46] Andrew: So again, if you're biking and you're not listening to something and you're just really focused on the [00:22:50] road or you're horseback riding and you're really focused on the horse, you're using different pathways in [00:22:55] your brain and you're giving all that other pathways a rest. Whereas if the way that you unwind is you read a bunch [00:23:00] of stuff, you're still using those active reading pathways that are the same pathways that are [00:23:05] engaged when you're reading tweets or watching Instagram and whatever it is, right?
[00:23:09] Andrew: So you have [00:23:10] to break yourself out of that modality yourself a rest, and then you'll start [00:23:15] to see that it's hard to do,
[00:23:18] Nathan: Okay.
[00:23:18] Andrew: right? It's really hard to [00:23:20] sit with yourself. And then you'll be like, "Wow, this is hard." It shouldn't be hard. You should be able to sit with yourself for [00:23:25] hours at a time and, and just be fine.
[00:23:27] Andrew: That's what people used to do.
[00:23:29] Nathan: May- maybe [00:23:30] back in the day, but yeah, it's gotten
[00:23:31] Nathan: really hard to do that. Yes. Yeah
[00:23:32] Andrew: it used to just be what we called normal. Now [00:23:35] it's boring. And I'm not saying you have to do it for hours at a, a day, but you should be able to sit [00:23:40] for 15 minutes on a park bench and be fine, right? And not feel like you need [00:23:45] something. If you feel like you need something, you're probably addicted to it.
[00:23:47] Andrew: "Oh, what's... Oh, I need my phone." Yeah, you don't really [00:23:50] need your phone.
[00:23:50] Nathan: hmm,
[00:23:51] Andrew: And then you build in all these excuses. What if somebody tries to get ahold of me?" Then you'll [00:23:55] call them back later, or you'll text them back later. It, it's fine. "What if some emergency happens?" what are you gonna do [00:24:00] about the emergency on the park
[00:24:01] Andrew: bench Right?
[00:24:02] Andrew: And so you have to
[00:24:03] Andrew: dis- yeah, you have to [00:24:05] disengage with this. And secondarily, we need to have a... [00:24:10] We as people need to demand from the people who run that they need to give us a [00:24:15] plan, and we need a say on the plan. And so for government, like both political parties as far as [00:24:20] I'm concerned in, in America at least, don't have a plan.
[00:24:24] Andrew: They have, they have [00:24:25] ideas, cool, but we need plans now. We're, we're beyond the idea phase. We [00:24:30] need to actually exe- there's a lot of problems that we have that are some real and some [00:24:35] imagined, we need, we need tangible things to, to get out of it. And then the same is true [00:24:40] for these AI companies and all this other noise of these thought leaders within our society.
[00:24:44] Andrew: No one [00:24:45] elected you. I don't care what you have to say. And if you are gonna say we need to demand, okay, great, [00:24:50] you're gonna get the pathway to AGI. What's that detailed timeline look like,
[00:24:54] Nathan: Hmm.
[00:24:54] Andrew: [00:24:55] right? If you're actually gonna do it,
[00:24:57] Andrew: right?
[00:24:58] Andrew: yeah
[00:24:58] Andrew: give me a timeline. And [00:25:00] don't... And, and it can't be magical,
[00:25:02] Nathan: Yeah
[00:25:02] Andrew: And I think that's the, again, ideas versus [00:25:05] execution. We need to be forcing people through the lens of execution.
[00:25:08] Nathan: Yeah
[00:25:09] Andrew: Okay, you're gonna [00:25:10] give me a robot that does everything. Robots can't do right now, and AI can't do either, [00:25:15] so what's the next big step that I should be looking for? And they don't know.
[00:25:19] Andrew: Probably because there [00:25:20] isn't one, but
[00:25:21] Andrew: A whole
[00:25:21] Nathan: plan, there's no guarantee they could stick to the plan, right? You talk about
[00:25:24] Andrew: No, [00:25:25] but
[00:25:25] Nathan: self-driving and
[00:25:26] Andrew: But Elon's been really on that, right? And it is [00:25:30] how do you define full self-driving when people get into arguments? But I think [00:25:35] he's gotten a little bit afar ahead of reality on that. But the reality [00:25:40] is the first self-driving was dog 10 years ago or whatever.
[00:25:44] Andrew: [00:25:45] It's gotten miraculously better. Last time I was in a Tesla version four or level [00:25:50] f- whatever the hell, it pretty good. It wasn't perfect, but pretty good.
[00:25:54] Andrew: Okay, we're [00:25:55] gonna get you pretty good. Great.
[00:25:57] Nathan: That's When are you gonna get me
[00:25:58] Andrew: from pretty good to perfect, [00:26:00] right?
[00:26:00] Andrew: Yeah, that's, that's,
[00:26:01] Nathan: We'll get you pretty good.
[00:26:02] Andrew: yeah Yeah.
[00:26:03] Andrew: So we need to be demanding plans [00:26:05] for people, and then we, we'd have the, when it comes to the politics stuff, like the, the, the [00:26:10] people who are actually doing and are gonna be here for more than tw- 20 years need to be in charge [00:26:15] of stuff, right?
[00:26:16] Nathan: Yeah
[00:26:17] Andrew: we have to have the generational handoff.
[00:26:19] Andrew: It's gonna be [00:26:20] messy, but, I don't know what else to say. It, it... The, I think the biggest [00:26:25] problem we have in America right now is that the people in [00:26:30] positions of power and the people running the country and government are just too old to [00:26:35] understand how the time works,
[00:26:36] Nathan: Hmm
[00:26:37] Andrew: right? And not all of them, but I'm gonna lump them all [00:26:40] in and it, it, it's if you're unhappy with how America is today, you have to [00:26:45] look at who's been running it for the last 10, 20, 30, 40, in some case, [00:26:50] years.
[00:26:50] Andrew: It's the same goddamn people
[00:26:52] Nathan: yeah, yeah.
[00:26:53] Andrew: Right? So we need [00:26:55] new ideas. We need new people. I don't care if they're Republican, Democrat, Independent, black, [00:27:00] blue, green, yellow party. I don't give a right? We need different ideas and we need different [00:27:05] people to do stuff. 'Cause we're, we're, we, we can't, we, no, it's it would [00:27:10] be like if we had people running on the, the World War II platform of, "We're just [00:27:15] gonna build America's problems away," right?
[00:27:17] Andrew: It's that worked when there was no [00:27:20] competition in the world because everything was bombed,
[00:27:22] Andrew: but it doesn't work in 2026. I [00:27:25] wanna see manufacturing come back to America and people be able to build here too, right? [00:27:30] That would be awesome. I don't think that that is going to be anywhere near what it [00:27:35] was in the past.
[00:27:35] Andrew: I don't think it's real, and from what I understand, high-tech manufacturing, it's robots [00:27:40] anyway
[00:27:40] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah
[00:27:42] Andrew: You don't have hundreds of people walking into the factory with [00:27:45] no skills in the factory and learning on the job, and I don't think that's real anymore, right? I [00:27:50] do think there's a variation of that that is real, 'cause we still do build stuff.
[00:27:54] Nathan: [00:27:55] Yeah
[00:27:55] Andrew: And I, I was driving down the road the other day and I saw a billboard for some, a fabrication plant in the [00:28:00] area here, and it was paying like, I don't know, it was 30-some bucks an hour.
[00:28:03] Andrew: I was like, that [00:28:05] seems..." And they're like, no no, education required.
[00:28:09] Andrew: And so I looked [00:28:10] at it, I was like, that's like pretty good." All I hear is there's no jobs,
[00:28:14] Andrew: right? [00:28:15]
[00:28:15] Nathan: you and evacuate soon.
[00:28:16] Andrew: Maybe. It... But the, the caveats were [00:28:20] that, no criminal record, right? And I think you had to have a, a GED or a col- a high [00:28:25] school diploma.
[00:28:25] Nathan: education, yeah
[00:28:27] Andrew: Yeah, and then they did want some [00:28:30] experience if you had it, but they were like, "It's not required, it's just helpful." And then it was working in a [00:28:35] clean room, which is definitely not for everybody. You gotta be in a bunny suit. And then it was
[00:28:38] Andrew: also,
[00:28:39] Andrew: you [00:28:40] start on the swing shift.
[00:28:41] Andrew: And so f- yeah, so for folks...
[00:28:44] Andrew: Yeah. [00:28:45] Yeah, so I think you went in at 7:00 PM and got done at 3:00 AM or Yeah [00:28:50] And, and they... But you got a pay differential, right? So you got a couple bucks more an hour for that. And [00:28:55] then, the thing I thought was really cool with that position too is that they give you stock equity right out the
[00:28:59] Andrew: [00:29:00] gate.
[00:29:00] Nathan: okay.
[00:29:01] Andrew: So on top of your
[00:29:03] Andrew: 28, 30 bucks an [00:29:05] hour, yeah, you get... I don't... It wasn't a lot, but I was like, it's really cool that you get stock grant [00:29:10] as a entry-level employee with no college education. That's really awesome[00:29:15]
[00:29:15] Nathan: yeah, they, they know what they're doing or
[00:29:17] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:29:17] Andrew: So, that's a, that's a, viable [00:29:20] career that you could walk into theoretically with no experience, with a high school diploma [00:29:25] and have a pretty decent middle class life and dare I say, go up the ladder.
[00:29:29] Andrew: Not [00:29:30] glamorous. But again,
[00:29:32] Nathan: class life, right? As
[00:29:33] Andrew: we're probably talk... [00:29:35] Yeah, but we're talking probably about dozens of people and not
[00:29:38] Nathan: Right millions [00:29:40] of people or thousands of people, right? So it's like I don't, I don't think the scale of, of manufacturing is [00:29:45] ever gonna come back to that. But we, we need people with different ideas. But I think that's an interesting [00:29:50] segue.
[00:29:50] Andrew: So like how do You I, I don't, there, I don't know what the solution is. I think there's strategies to [00:29:55] mitigate, and I think
[00:29:55] Andrew: being aware of the problem and being aware of the inputs of the [00:30:00] problem are, are all you can do, and then you gotta be honest with yourself. If you can't be honest with yourself, you're [00:30:05] screwed, so good
[00:30:05] Andrew: luck
[00:30:06] Nathan: We have been talking primarily in an American context, but I do, I do [00:30:10] think there's something happening global- happening globally where it's just this, [00:30:15] everyone's feeling this sort of change, and that may be heavily focused on certain [00:30:20] superpowers or
[00:30:20] Andrew: we have some of the oldest leadership in the history of the world everywhere, [00:30:25] right? That's why I'm picking on the boomer generation because they, they... China, [00:30:30] Russia, America, I
[00:30:32] Andrew: think Canada, I think he's Gen X now. [00:30:35] I think
[00:30:35] Andrew: m-
[00:30:35] Nathan: rotated, right?
[00:30:36] Andrew: yeah. But France [00:30:40] Macron might be Gen X, but he's that weird younger boomer, older Gen [00:30:45] X, everyone else I can think of, UK is maybe Gen [00:30:50] X-y now.
[00:30:50] Andrew: But the problem you have when people say, "See? It's different," it's no, because those, [00:30:55] those people in the elder rungs of the Gen X group [00:31:00] are effectively boomers. They've had all of the boomer life [00:31:05] effectively, happen to them. And, and the generational split isn't some magic
[00:31:09] Andrew: Cutoff. It's [00:31:10] like if you're 61, you have this radically world different experience.
[00:31:13] Andrew: But the people, even in [00:31:15] most Gen X people, most of them had the opportunities to get almost all their [00:31:20] college paid for through state means, and the, the, the younger you are in that [00:31:25] generation, the less help you got. And so a lot of the people in Gen X saw the ladder [00:31:30] get pulled up from them in this country.
[00:31:32] Andrew: I can't speak to everybody in the world, but it seems like it's [00:31:35] pretty similar everywhere else. Everyone got screwed. Whereas the millennials, even the older [00:31:40] millennials, almost n- there was noth- there was no ladder at that point. The ladder was effectively gone. And yeah, maybe [00:31:45] you got scholarships for college and, and had a lot of it paid for 'cause there was still some of the social [00:31:50] services left, but you didn't really have a, a, a very different lifestyle.
[00:31:54] Andrew: So I [00:31:55] think, I think it's this cultural problem of the generational change, and [00:32:00] it's
[00:32:00] Andrew: The things that these people... The, the, the, the people who are running the world [00:32:05] today grew up in the shadow of nuclear war
[00:32:09] Nathan: Sure, yeah[00:32:10]
[00:32:10] Andrew: In the Cold War, and some of them grew up in communism . Some of them still are in [00:32:15] communism.
[00:32:15] Andrew: But for them the the USSR was a real thing that is no longer a [00:32:20] thing, and it's n- nothing... It's not anywhere even close to what it was.
[00:32:23] Nathan: lifetimes in transition, right?
[00:32:24] Nathan: So [00:32:25] yeah,
[00:32:25] Andrew: and a lot of the people in Russia are running the country like it still is, and, and it, [00:32:30] it's just... If, if, if you've lived, if you've grown up and have never known it, [00:32:35] I think you probably have a different set of priorities than if you grew up [00:32:40] trying to re- trying to relive it, try, or, or had I guess, I don't know [00:32:45] if he would be old enough to have seen it happen. There's some people alive [00:32:50] today who did see the rise of it, but they would've been really [00:32:55] young, right? They would've known life before the USSR, during USSR, and then post. And same with [00:33:00] America. There are some people alive today, there are very few, but they know what life [00:33:05] was like before World War II.
[00:33:07] Andrew: And so they, they're living in a totally different frame. Most of them are [00:33:10] not running the country, although there's a few people in Congress who are, like, close to 90.
[00:33:14] Nathan: Yeah. [00:33:15] Yeah.
[00:33:15] Andrew: But I
[00:33:16] Nathan: I
[00:33:16] Andrew: it, right? Most people who were in World War [00:33:20] II who fought or even served and, and, in the factories that built they're not [00:33:25] alive anymore, right?
[00:33:27] Andrew: And the people who grew up directly after hearing those [00:33:30] stories are. But can you imagine trying to live the world like you just build your way out [00:33:35] of the problem
[00:33:36] Andrew: in
[00:33:36] Andrew: 2026? It just doesn't
[00:33:38] Nathan: That's why I thought it was like a [00:33:40] worldly problem because, imagine like the, if you imagine different layers of the, the Earth or [00:33:45] something, and different layers move at different rates, right? So you do have this under political [00:33:50] realm which is slowly moving, and then you have something like culture changes, which [00:33:55] are maybe a little bit faster, and then you have like technology, which seems to be changing
[00:33:58] Nathan: crazy fast.
[00:33:59] Andrew: no, and [00:34:00] that's a great point, right? Is the technology, my
[00:34:04] Andrew: [00:34:05] Grandparents Grew up without TV.
[00:34:09] Nathan: TV. Yeah, [00:34:10] yeah. I was gonna
[00:34:10] Andrew: Like it was a thing, but nobody had it, right? It
[00:34:13] Nathan: yeah. [00:34:15] Yeah.
[00:34:15] Andrew: and like they barely had radio.
[00:34:18] Nathan: Yeah. Right,
[00:34:19] Andrew: [00:34:20] And I'll, I'll never forget when I showed my grandpa a picture of his house from space
[00:34:24] Nathan: Wow. [00:34:25]
[00:34:25] Andrew: it blew his mind, right? I...
[00:34:28] Nathan: Aliens.
[00:34:29] Andrew: I know, [00:34:30] right? I found a, a, a satellite photo and then his truck was [00:34:35] parked out in the lawn and he must've been doing something, like yard work or something, and [00:34:40] he just could not believe that that was his house from space.
[00:34:43] Nathan: Yeah, yeah
[00:34:44] Andrew: [00:34:45] So he's literally gone from space wasn't a thing we did, Sputnik, all that [00:34:50] right?
[00:34:50] Andrew: And then like literally seeing, and I didn't, and I have like real time, but you could do it real time [00:34:55] now too. You could run a satellite and see your, do That level of technological progression in one lifetime [00:35:00] is mind-blowing, and the people who are trying to run the world are like living in a world that [00:35:05] like they don't even grok
[00:35:06] Nathan: yeah, exactly. Yeah
[00:35:09] Andrew: So, but I, [00:35:10] so I, I think like part of what we were gonna talk through, like the, the open source science and open source [00:35:15] hardware, that movement
[00:35:18] Andrew: Came out of an [00:35:20] era that a lot of the... The whole the open ideas [00:35:25] have been, been around forever. But the modern open source movement as we understand it [00:35:30] today I think really came out of people who were going through [00:35:35] Vietnam War era
[00:35:36] Andrew: stuff,
[00:35:36] Nathan: I was gonna say
[00:35:37] Andrew: fall of communism. [00:35:40] Yeah, so the government was throwing in a bunch of money trying to figure out how to grow systems.
[00:35:44] Andrew: [00:35:45] You had a lot of information disclosure problems with the Vietnam War. A lot of [00:35:50] people, the counterculture ideas were out there. The- very few people were actually [00:35:55] hippies, but it's like everybody was a hippie in the '60s, and it's like the reality was, like, not really true. [00:36:00] But those ideas really permeated the culture, and openness and acceptance and peace and love and [00:36:05] all this kind of idea was really out there.
[00:36:08] Andrew: And then with, with communism [00:36:10] and, and the, the USSR and, and keeping information [00:36:15] totally and completely... We've talked a little bit about Chernobyl, I think, in the past where
[00:36:19] Nathan: Yes, yeah
[00:36:19] Andrew: there [00:36:20] was a problem until Sweden was like, "Hey, we have a lot of radiation in our [00:36:25] atmosphere and we're not really sure why."
[00:36:27] Nathan: Yeah
[00:36:28] Andrew: Like... And so [00:36:30] the modern open source movement, I'm not a historian on, on this o- obviously, but it [00:36:35] it comes... Most of the people in that movement were, I would say, inspired by either the [00:36:40] Beatniks and/or the hippies, and so they were of
[00:36:43] Andrew: a certain age. Yeah, the [00:36:45] Beatniks predated the, the hippies.
[00:36:47] Andrew: No one talks
[00:36:47] Andrew: about the Beatniks. Yeah.
[00:36:49] Nathan: I did, I, I did [00:36:50] not know that. Okay.
[00:36:50] Andrew: Yeah, you should
[00:36:51] Andrew: G- Google it. That's a, that's a fascinating group of people, man. A [00:36:55] lot of the stuff I think in our society that we, we attribute to, the '60s and [00:37:00] '70s is actually really beatnik ideas that were
[00:37:02] Nathan: Ah, okay.
[00:37:03] Andrew: permeating through [00:37:05] or directly inspired a lot of the, the people in those, in that time.[00:37:10]
[00:37:10] Nathan: Yeah
[00:37:11] Andrew: And I believe to be a beatnik, you have to be [00:37:15] Silent Generation or Greatest Generation, so you would've been, been teenager [00:37:20] in World War I or shortly thereafter. Or a younger kid kinda coming out of [00:37:25] it. Your, your worldview was kinda shaped through "What the hell was that?" And, "Let's never do that [00:37:30] again."
[00:37:30] Andrew: And then 10 years later it happens again, and you're like, "Oh my God, we're doing it again. Why are we [00:37:35] doing it again?"
[00:37:36] Andrew: So I think the historical context matters. But yeah, the, the idea that you should be [00:37:40] able to just give stuff away or have abundance
[00:37:44] Andrew: because... [00:37:45] Yeah.
[00:37:46] Nathan: yeah. Yeah
[00:37:47] Andrew: So that, that's a really...
[00:37:49] Andrew: I think [00:37:50] that can be a good pathway to get out of this kind of problem set too,
[00:37:54] Nathan: I [00:37:55] agree. Right
[00:37:56] Andrew: The... But we were kinda d- talking a little bit before this too, and, and [00:38:00] the problems with open source though are the, the old system, which is [00:38:05] the current system, that you don't build it yourself.
[00:38:09] Andrew: [00:38:10] You Outsource it to another person or another company.
[00:38:14] Andrew: [00:38:15] You, put all of the risk and support onto that [00:38:20] entity, and
[00:38:21] Nathan: can I take a step to try and bridge the gap? Because
[00:38:24] Nathan: I, I think [00:38:25] you, you mentioned something which I, I feel like is, is important to call out 'cause we were going [00:38:30] from this place where it felt, it felt like none of us were making any decisions that seemed to be [00:38:35] going in directions that we wanted. And the bridge between the historical context of where open [00:38:40] source came from or like where the internet was started was, was really a lot about sharing [00:38:45] ideas and sharing knowledge across across countries, right? I think actually [00:38:50] that's a beautiful gap of like how you get out of something like this
[00:38:52] Nathan: where you feel like noth- nothing you're doing makes any sense is [00:38:55] you start getting involved in communities and you, you can build these... If things go [00:39:00] right, right?
[00:39:00] Nathan: And then we'll transition back into where, where
[00:39:03] Nathan: everything is. But
[00:39:04] Nathan: there was a [00:39:05] time...
[00:39:05] Nathan: Oh, okay. Okay
[00:39:06] Andrew: but the, the real [00:39:10] precipice for the internet and this idea was actually [00:39:15] ARPANET, which was the idea, there's a lot of different rationales [00:39:20] for it, but I think the predominant one was what do we do if command [00:39:25] and control is severed? If the Russians nuke Washington DC,
[00:39:29] Andrew: how do we [00:39:30] nuke them back?
[00:39:31] Andrew: We need a decentralized autonomous [00:39:35]
[00:39:35] Andrew: communication
[00:39:36] Andrew: system so that we can nuke them back, right?
[00:39:38] Nathan: the idea behind it of the [00:39:40] decentralization or being self-sufficient in management i- I think part of [00:39:45] what as I think is so appealing about open source is that you build these communities that, provided you have [00:39:50] a good enough idea, everyone contributes and it grows into something like Linux,
[00:39:54] Andrew: [00:39:55] I, I like your version better, but I'm right
[00:39:58] Nathan: This is your cast, man, [00:40:00] so
[00:40:00] Andrew: No. I, no, I, no, I I'm being funny, but I am actually [00:40:05] right. The, the necessity of open systems... So [00:40:10] I, I think it's like how do you make decisions like that? People rag on the United States military a lot. [00:40:15] They're very, very good at executing
[00:40:17] Andrew: If they have a, a goal [00:40:20] that
[00:40:20] Andrew: is Executable, right?
[00:40:23] Andrew: All the politics and aside, that they've-- [00:40:25] that they're probably the best in the world at making happen if they need to make it happen. so [00:40:30] the, the, the problem was like, again, how do we nuke 'em back, basically. What was [00:40:35] interesting was the solution to that problem was a [00:40:40] system that wasn't controlled,
[00:40:42] Andrew: that was open, right?
[00:40:43] Andrew: That was [00:40:45] self-organizing, and the internet is still self-organizing, like BGP and [00:40:50] those, some of these other protocols get tampered with. But like the original idea was [00:40:55] that no one node controlled everything, and if stuff went down, how do we make [00:41:00] sure that we can just, circumvent the thing that's down so that we can still [00:41:05] communicate?
[00:41:05] Andrew: And that's like the predecessor. It's like they probably paid a bunch of [00:41:10] scientists to figure this out. When they did, that's what happened.
[00:41:13] Nathan: So yeah, isn't that what [00:41:15] happened?
[00:41:15] Andrew: But, but but I think it was two points, and again, I'm not... I could be totally wrong on this, but [00:41:20] my understanding of it was that we were paying these, these DARPA people to try to figure this out.
[00:41:24] Andrew: But [00:41:25] at, and, and around the same time, a lot of their collaborators were working on at [00:41:30] universities, and they were like, "How do we just get information to our buddies in Ottawa?" [00:41:35] it's it takes 20 days to mail like, how cool would it be if we could just exchange [00:41:40] information or like messages or phone calls are expensive.
[00:41:43] Andrew: Like, how do we do this? [00:41:45] And like electronic mail and all this stuff that we now take for granted was all developed partly out of [00:41:50] necessity, but partly because the ARPANET idea was [00:41:55] designed initially to be open, modifiable, and routable, which is the predicas- [00:42:00] predecessor to open source.
[00:42:02] Andrew: And like the prede- I'd say even before [00:42:05] that, the United States system, of information [00:42:10] gating is patents, and we decided 100 years ago or 200 years ago [00:42:15] that patents would also become open source, right?
[00:42:17] Andrew: The, the original intention was that you were, [00:42:20] granted the ability to have an exclusive right to your idea or thing, make [00:42:25] some money, and then it would go to the rest of the society because the [00:42:30] universities that you worked with to build it or the people who got educated at the universities were [00:42:35] part of America, and everybody should benefit from that.
[00:42:38] Andrew: But you need to make some money too. And so I, I [00:42:40] would say like those ideas spiraled into this like what we would now consider like open [00:42:45] source or open community.
[00:42:46] Nathan: that's, that's the perfect segue into
[00:42:49] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:42:49] Nathan: of what [00:42:50] we're, we're talking about is the state of open source now and, yeah, wh- where [00:42:55] does it go? And specifically open-- I, I think we were talking specifically
[00:42:57] Andrew: Yeah
[00:42:58] Nathan: but open source software [00:43:00] has, has a longer history, and we've seen it go through various phases.
[00:43:04] Andrew: But
[00:43:04] Andrew: [00:43:05] it hasn't, it hasn't though, right? Because it's like
[00:43:08] Nathan: I think it's been in circles[00:43:10]
[00:43:10] Andrew: It's science manifest is how I think about it. 'Cause like how do you [00:43:15] get anything done if you're inventing something? You, you, if you, if, [00:43:20] if you're, if everything you're working on in a science lab [00:43:25] is closed and you have no ability to modify it or interact with it, you're never going to [00:43:30] invent anything.
[00:43:31] Nathan: Yes.
[00:43:31] Andrew: Scientists are notorious for tearing apart [00:43:35] and the microscope doesn't quite get me the focus I need, so I like replace the [00:43:40] glass to make it better or whatever. The original telescope [00:43:45] was f- famously done that way as well. But no, the, the point I was gonna [00:43:50] make was that the, the way that things used to [00:43:55] work/work today is very much the old system, which is the current [00:44:00] system of you don't outsource...
[00:44:02] Andrew: You outsource everything, right? You hire the expertise, [00:44:05] you get rid of the liability, you get a contractor. [00:44:10] And part of this I think is, You can argue specialty [00:44:15] is, better a lot of times. And in, in order to get a [00:44:20] specialty or, or to get focused knowledge, you have to [00:44:25] specialize in something. But the
[00:44:26] Nathan: Sure
[00:44:27] Andrew: is we've taken that, I think, too far into [00:44:30] everything is now specialized.
[00:44:31] Andrew: Like subcontractors of subcontractors. And so to try to get [00:44:35] anything done at a large scale is, is become bureaucratic and impossible. I think the, [00:44:40] the part of the reason for that was that the boomer generation had so much abundance, had so many [00:44:45] people, you could afford as a, a cultural society to say, "Yeah, you're a, [00:44:50] a steam plumber.
[00:44:51] Andrew: I'm a liquid water plumber, so I'm gonna specialize in steam. You're gonna [00:44:55] specialize in wastewater." Whereas it used to just be the plumber did [00:45:00] it
[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Andrew: And they figured it out. And maybe it wasn't always perfect, but they got it done, [00:45:05] right?
[00:45:05] Nathan: But I, I think those specializations do naturally emerge from [00:45:10] the increasing knowledge base that we have, right? So if you think about medicine specifically once you start learning [00:45:15] more about the human body, the one single doctor just doesn't cut it anymore. You need to [00:45:20] have someone that knows this particular subsystem or that, or that one.
[00:45:24] Andrew: Yeah, but [00:45:25] yeah hmm I think there's, I think overspecialty is very much a [00:45:30] thing, and I think our current system incentivizes specialty.[00:45:35]
[00:45:35] Andrew: And that may or may not be wrong, but I think the reality is that we can't do that anymore. We [00:45:40] just literally don't have the people. we don't have enough [00:45:45] of We don't have enough Of the right [00:45:50] resources to be able to do that.
[00:45:51] Andrew: And so what I'm trying to do is bridge it to [00:45:55] open source being critical,
[00:45:56] Andrew: right?
[00:45:57] Andrew: Yeah
[00:45:58] Nathan: we were talking about it. I think medicine is, [00:46:00] is a prime example of that, of the, the specialization, and we can't sustain that. But [00:46:05] maybe that's another
[00:46:06] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of opinions on that. [00:46:10] But, but the, the, the, the point is, is like we-- the old method/the current method [00:46:15] is specialization and outsourcing risk,
[00:46:18] Nathan: Yeah
[00:46:19] Andrew: and we're [00:46:20] having to go back the other way to,
[00:46:22] Nathan: Be going back the other way, I,
[00:46:23] Andrew: Yeah,
[00:46:24] Andrew: and wh- I also [00:46:25] think like antitrust and, and, and vertical integration was really found- frowned upon 'cause a lot of the [00:46:30] people, building society, like post-Rockefeller, which was like the big [00:46:35] antitrust vertical stuff, there was a huge backlash on,
[00:46:39] Nathan: [00:46:40] Monopolizing,
[00:46:40] Andrew: on monopolization and verticalization, as there should be.
[00:46:42] Andrew: Monopolies are absolutely atrocious for [00:46:45] everyone, 100%. But so I think there was a, a little bit more of a push to [00:46:50] specialize and then kinda shut off, and so you, you see a lot of the companies like Bell Labs, [00:46:55] GE, they all they didn't... GE is a really interesting one 'cause like they never [00:47:00] really got rid of stuff.
[00:47:01] Andrew: They just they compartmentalized it more into like [00:47:05] sub-companies,
[00:47:05] Nathan: else. Yeah, it just
[00:47:06] Nathan: became something else. Yeah, yeah
[00:47:08] Andrew: but the, the-- GE [00:47:10] is really just a holding company of all these different companies that do other stuff, but [00:47:15] also the, the heads of those business units are autonomous. They're effectively [00:47:20] companies, right?
[00:47:20] Andrew: So they've
[00:47:21] Andrew: They've kept the brand, so to speak, and they, they've been able to keep the, the [00:47:25] knowledge and be able to inter- intersperse, but it's very rare for that to succeed. [00:47:30] So that's kinda where we're at now. But where we're having to go back to is, is again [00:47:35] the, the de-specializing
[00:47:38] Nathan: The generalization. I think, I think it's the [00:47:40] opposite. It
[00:47:40] Andrew: I think despecialize.
[00:47:42] Nathan: Okay. That's, that's what we're going [00:47:45] with. We're de-specializing.
[00:47:47] Andrew: Yeah, we're, we're de-specializing ourselves. [00:47:50] But it's never been easier to do that. And part of the problem [00:47:55] that led to specialization was that the ability to share information, like to, the plumbing [00:48:00] thing is a great example.
[00:48:01] Andrew: Yeah, I was in an old bookstore and there was a plumber's manual, [00:48:05] and it was like literally four inches thick, and it literally...
[00:48:09] Andrew: No, this was... [00:48:10] I should have bought it 'cause it was a really cool thing. But it was from like the 1920s,[00:48:15]
[00:48:15] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:48:15] Andrew: and it had literally anything and everything you could have
[00:48:19] Nathan: Think [00:48:20] about plumbing. Yeah, yeah
[00:48:21] Andrew: that would run through a pipe
[00:48:23] Nathan: Yeah
[00:48:24] Andrew: [00:48:25] How do you off-gas this kind of gas nitrogen or [00:48:30] carbon dioxide?
[00:48:30] Andrew: And what the... They had the actual calculus of like flow rates and all [00:48:35] this in there, and it was because the plumber person would just come out and be like, "I don't know [00:48:40] what the nitrogen gas pumping... Let me pull up my little plumber book [00:48:45] that has some information in there, and I've never done this before, but I'm gonna try to figure it out and it'll probably [00:48:50] work."
[00:48:50] Andrew: But you had to have the plumber, and the plumber had to have a book. Now I can Google [00:48:55] it or probably ask AI and it will be 80% correct.
[00:48:58] Nathan: 80% [00:49:00] correct, yes. Or give you 80% of the accurate
[00:49:03] Andrew: yeah.
[00:49:03] Nathan: that you're looking for
[00:49:04] Andrew: But, but [00:49:05] I I'm joking a little bit, but like it... That used to be the problem, and now we don't, we don't have that [00:49:10] problem anymore. And I think what we're seeing is we've talked about this before too with AI specifically, [00:49:15] AI has never made it eas- it, it has never been easier to build [00:49:20] something than now with AI.
[00:49:21] Andrew: Built like coding is, is it's still hard. There's still [00:49:25] some traps you fall into, but like pretty much anyone can drum up some code that'll [00:49:30] work-ish. That, that's, that used to be the hard part is I have this really great idea and it's gonna make me billions of dollars, but [00:49:35] if I just had an engineer.
[00:49:36] Andrew: You don't have that excuse anymore, and there's apparently not a lot of billionaires [00:49:40] happening,
[00:49:40] Andrew: Because the execution is still hard. And like we were talking about with hardware a [00:49:45] couple of weeks ago, I think it was like, AI is okay with it, right? Like it, it, [00:49:50] it's getting there. But we're actually getting with 3D printing and like chips being avail- [00:49:55] well, other than like memory
[00:49:56] Nathan: Yeah, I was gonna say, depending on what chip you're talking about. Most
[00:49:59] Andrew: Some [00:50:00] chips,
[00:50:00] Andrew: yeah,
[00:50:01] Andrew: We're actually in an era now where you can c- you can [00:50:05] custom build software and you can custom build hardware.
[00:50:07] Nathan: Yep. Yeah, yeah.
[00:50:08] Andrew: And I, I, I think the, the [00:50:10] only barrier that we really have here is the creative energies to [00:50:15] do it and the understanding of the possibility of doing that, [00:50:20] right? I think there's so many people who run businesses where they're like, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna do this.
[00:50:24] Andrew: I'm gonna outsource [00:50:25] it." That costs money. And there's your competitive edge. So if I need a specialized [00:50:30] gizmo to... I don't have a, a coffee roasting. Specialized gizmo [00:50:35] to roast my coffee, and everyone else has a specialized gizmo to roast their coffee [00:50:40] that's not really a competitive edge for me. That's just par for being a coffee [00:50:45] roaster.
[00:50:45] Andrew: But if I can come up with a specialized gizmo that roasts my coffee better and [00:50:50] then maybe bags it faster, now I can do a higher throughput, or I can control [00:50:55] the quality of my coffee better, or I can change how I wanna do stuff, right? And I [00:51:00] think that is a huge thing that's really hard for people to grok as well, is yes, [00:51:05] you then have the risk of the gizmo breaking and then you having to figure out how to fix it.
[00:51:09] Andrew: It's also never [00:51:10] really been easier or harder or easier to do that. But now you have the ability to [00:51:15] create, differential, right?
[00:51:18] Andrew: So AI is gonna [00:51:20] make everything easier, so everyone... Then there's gonna be 100 coffee producers or coffee [00:51:25] roasters use this and right? Great. I think that's awesome. How do you differentiate [00:51:30] yourself if everyone's using the same coffee roasting machine?
[00:51:33] Andrew: You don't really. Maybe the [00:51:35] beans, but there's only so many places that grow beans, so okay, packaging? [00:51:40] Branding only takes you so far, and once everybody gets overloaded with the million coffees on the [00:51:45] shelf, you're gonna have to figure out a better... 'Cause branding is now irrelevant.
[00:51:49] Andrew: And that's the next [00:51:50] phase of this AI we're gonna see. We're gonna see an app for everything, and it's gonna be the brand and the pretty label and [00:51:55] the, the color and the box and all this stuff, and that'll matter f- until people finally figure out that [00:52:00] this app is basically the same as this app, and this app's cheaper, so now we're competing on [00:52:05] price, and now it's a race to the bottom.
[00:52:07] Andrew: And then eventually you'll hit the bottom of AI [00:52:10] costs certain amount of money to do,
[00:52:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:12] Andrew: that'll be the bottom. And anyone who can figure [00:52:15] out a way to marginalize that will maybe make a little bit of money.
[00:52:18] Nathan: You could argue that that might be a [00:52:20] good thing when it comes to AI, but
[00:52:21] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:52:22] Andrew: But it's also... But then how do you [00:52:25] differentiate? You start inventing and in a physical world, like the software [00:52:30] world's really challenging, folks.
[00:52:31] Andrew: Like good luck.
[00:52:33] Andrew: But in the physical world, if you could [00:52:35] marry custom software and marry custom hardware development, I, I think you're in a... We're, we've [00:52:40] never s- seen like a high-tech be able to just [00:52:45] manufacture high-tech before.
[00:52:46] Andrew: We're, I think, going to be in the onset of a [00:52:50] new industrial revolution
[00:52:52] Nathan: Yeah, I, I don't I've-- [00:52:55] There have already been terms likened to that thrown around already with, with AI being the
[00:52:59] Nathan: [00:53:00] spearhead of that movement.
[00:53:01] Andrew: I thought I was special
[00:53:03] Nathan: No. People have been calling this the [00:53:05] AI revolution, the, the next industrial revolution
[00:53:07] Nathan: For it, better term.
[00:53:09] Andrew: has [00:53:10] anyone called it the, the de-specialized revolution?
[00:53:12] Nathan: the T specialized row.
[00:53:14] Andrew: Gotta [00:53:15] write my piece in The Atlantic real quick. Gotta coin that term
[00:53:18] Nathan: Yeah, I I, I think you [00:53:20] have a good point. There, there are many nuances i-in this, of course, but I, I [00:53:25] think calling out the idea of, of being able to now effectively build the entire [00:53:30] stack, is something that a lot of people didn't have the capability to do before. [00:53:35] very honestly, going back to some of the stuff we were talking about at the start, a lot of my friends who were [00:53:40] feeling that rut ended up trying to go and do their own things because now it's easier than ever. So they [00:53:45] found the passionate thing that they cared about and then ended up working on th-that because that was the only thing they could really [00:53:50] control.
[00:53:50] Andrew: Yeah. And it, and I think to, to like th- how does this [00:53:55] stuff get adopted? If you're running a coffee bean business now, let's [00:54:00] say or coffee roasting business, there's food grade certification stuff you [00:54:05] have to, to pass to, to use stuff. And some of these certifications and stuff [00:54:10] are good, but a lot of these systems of, of bureaucracy have come out of [00:54:15] an era that doesn't make sense anymore, and they're now barriers to adoption.[00:54:20]
[00:54:20] Andrew: And part of the bureaucification of [00:54:25] society has been regulations and standards. [00:54:30] And then once you have a regulation and standard, then you start using that to make things [00:54:35] safe, and then we get into what I would argue is like over-engineering the standard
[00:54:39] Nathan: Yeah. We should have another [00:54:40] cast about that. The idea of standards and certifications, I think it's just so interesting. It's, it's [00:54:45] a very, very
[00:54:45] Andrew: Yeah, and I'm not against it, right? It,
[00:54:48] Andrew: and, and I think it, it's [00:54:50] important, but we're-- the big barrier is if you're an industrial [00:54:55] plant building industrial stuff, you have to have... There's all these ISO certifications you have to [00:55:00] conform to a lot of times.
[00:55:02] Andrew: And your home-built machine [00:55:05] might not be that.
[00:55:06] Andrew: Or what the reality of all these certifications is they cost [00:55:10] money
[00:55:10] Nathan: Exactly. I was going, that was what the cast would have been about if we had had that cast.
[00:55:14] Andrew: [00:55:15] Yeah. They cost money and it's really just a gating institution, and [00:55:20] it actually then becomes prohibitive for people from trying stuff. Sometimes for good reason, like we [00:55:25] don't wanna burn down the, the building because I think I can wire very well and, [00:55:30] and build an electrical appliance. So we have the UL standards and there's [00:55:35] ISO standards and that kind of stuff too.
[00:55:36] Andrew: But we have to rebalance that again
[00:55:38] Andrew: to,
[00:55:39] Nathan: with that[00:55:40]
[00:55:40] Andrew: to form to a world where I can 3D print just about anything I could ever [00:55:45] conceive of in my house. I don't actually do 3D printing. I have a lot of friends who do, but
[00:55:49] Nathan: I [00:55:50] do. Yeah, Yeah, right? But, and you can 3D print metal too, right? You can build [00:55:55] like durable stuff.
[00:55:57] Andrew: They 3D print stuff for space.
[00:55:59] Nathan: [00:56:00] Yeah
[00:56:00] Andrew: So it's like we have to change How this setup is to make it make [00:56:05] sense for today, and what I'm-- all I hear is "We have to throw it out," or, "We have to stay with it." And I'm like, [00:56:10] "There's always room in between." But when you have the people who [00:56:15] don't even understand what I just said about 3D printing or [00:56:20] realize they'll think it's scary, and I think it's an amazing opportunity for everyone to be [00:56:25] able to build anything that they could dream of, right?
[00:56:28] Andrew: If you want your own [00:56:30] personalized cup, why not? I don't have to go to Ikea and get the same [00:56:35] cup as everybody else wants. If that's what you wanna do, cool. But like, why, why not, right? [00:56:40] People always say why would you do that?" some people have big hands and don't have cups that fit [00:56:45] really well, or small hands, whatever the
[00:56:46] Nathan: Creative expression too,
[00:56:48] Andrew: Exactly. [00:56:50] A-and instead of saying and, and putting up all these barriers, [00:56:55] we gotta rewind the barriers. But we don't wanna just get rid of everything. We don't want you to have a non-food safe cup [00:57:00] that's gonna leach plastic into your water or soda or whatever, Right,
[00:57:04] Andrew: That'd be a good [00:57:05] cast to talk about regulations and, like, how to, how do we untangle this in a [00:57:10] logical way so that we still have protections, but, not completely [00:57:15] kill everybody who has an idea to let them experiment?
[00:57:18] Andrew: And [00:57:20] spoiler alert, it's ramping regulation, but that's a whole
[00:57:23] Nathan: No, I, I think it's a, it's a [00:57:25] good enough-- it's a good cast. I, I think I have a lot of opinions from the technical side as well, and,
[00:57:29] Andrew: [00:57:30] Yeah
[00:57:30] Nathan: You have more on the political spectrum so it'd
[00:57:33] Andrew: I've worked in this for too [00:57:35] long
[00:57:36] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:57:36] Andrew: dealing with bureaucracies and regulations, and [00:57:40] it's it it's like everything always makes sense initially, and then you get 20 years down the [00:57:45] road and everyone's "What the hell? Why are we..." it's like we
[00:57:47] Andrew: don't wear tunics anymore.
[00:57:48] Andrew: That was super common in [00:57:50] Rome, right? It's t- worked really well for them, but we're not doing it, so why do we keep [00:57:55] clinging to all these rules that were made by people who don't [00:58:00] even live in the reality we do? There's a lot of these regulations we have come from [00:58:05] there's...
[00:58:05] Nathan: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:58:07] Andrew: There, there's always like in the, the gift shop, right? [00:58:10] There's always some book that's laws that
[00:58:12] Nathan: don't make
[00:58:12] Nathan: any sense
[00:58:13] Nathan: Yeah. Yes.
[00:58:14] Andrew: [00:58:15] apple pie on a horse on a bridge in Maine or something like that, and you're like, "What the hell does that even [00:58:20] mean?" But we, we don't... In our society, we're very additive,
[00:58:24] Nathan: We [00:58:25] talked about this before. Yeah. We're not subtractive either, right? yeah.
[00:58:28] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:58:28] Nathan: Iterative is, or subtractive, right? [00:58:30] Yeah.
[00:58:30] Nathan: it's something that we've brought up before, several times before.
[00:58:33] Andrew: it,
[00:58:33] Andrew: It's, yeah, it's, it's just [00:58:35] progress is, progress fundamentally has just become change. And, and [00:58:40] that doesn't mean it's better or worse because no one's actually measuring it. It's just progress is just change. [00:58:45] We changed it, so we made progress. But that's not really what progress means, right. [00:58:50]
[00:58:50] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:58:50] Andrew: It r- I, I stole that from a friend. I told him I was gonna use it on the podcast, and [00:58:55] I don't think I
[00:58:55] Andrew: did yet.
[00:58:56] Nathan: Oh, oh.
[00:58:57] Andrew: So I got it in
[00:58:58] Nathan: Oh, you got a check mark there. [00:59:00] Done. Task, task completed.
[00:59:02] Andrew: Task complete. I made [00:59:05] progress
[00:59:05] Nathan: Yeah. Nice.
[00:59:06] Andrew: right, let's leave it there. We'll be back Thursday
[00:59:09] Nathan: [00:59:10] Yes,
[00:59:10] Andrew: and
[00:59:10] Nathan: now
[00:59:10] Andrew: we'll try to keep it to a
[00:59:11] Andrew: half hour, but
[00:59:12] Nathan: this
[00:59:12] Andrew: this was a double topic. Yeah
[00:59:14] Nathan: yeah. [00:59:15] Roughly this time-ish or two hours ago time-ish, yeah.
[00:59:18] Andrew: All right, man. Take [00:59:20]
[00:59:20] Andrew: care
[00:59:20] Nathan: All right, you as well