[00:00:00] Andrew: Hello
[00:00:01] Nathan: Hey, how are you doing?
[00:00:02] Andrew: I did it.
[00:00:03] Nathan: We took a week off.[00:00:05]
[00:00:05] Andrew: I know, right? Kind of. we took a, so we took a... Yeah, yeah, we quote unquote took a [00:00:10] week off.
[00:00:10] Andrew: Yeah, I, uh, I, I did not record last week either, so you were [00:00:15] out. I took the week off, I guess, from podcast stuff. I should [00:00:20] probably tell people. I mean, we kinda did, I guess, but I, I just, like, didn't do anything. I was just like, "Ah,
[00:00:24] Andrew: it's Thursday. [00:00:25] I'm gonna not do the podcast."
[00:00:27] Nathan: She does not show up.
[00:00:29] Andrew: Yeah, if you, if [00:00:30] you don't like it, call the fucking boss. I don't care. But but yeah
[00:00:34] Nathan: yeah, that, [00:00:35] that does open up the-- we, we have set, tried to set up a community thing, so you can, you [00:00:40] can actually call
[00:00:40] Nathan: up the boss now.
[00:00:41] Andrew: That's true. People can complain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a good point. So [00:00:45] we have a Discord. We've had a Discord for a really long time. I just didn't put it out for [00:00:50] whatever reason. I I did I don't know. There was the idea for a while that if [00:00:55] you subscribe to Patreon or something, you would get Discord access as
[00:00:59] Nathan: Oh, really? [00:01:00] Oh, I didn't realize that. Okay.
[00:01:01] Andrew: Yeah. I don't talk about it most people have no fucking [00:01:05] idea. But yeah, anyway, so there it is. But yeah, the, the link is in the description, you can go [00:01:10] to the website, threeeight.com. Big old Discord button up there if you wanna jump on Discord. If you have no [00:01:15] idea what Discord is, probably not for you.
[00:01:17] Andrew: it's a instant messaging platform that's really [00:01:20] popular with gamers and the kids.
[00:01:22] Andrew: Uh, I don't really know how to Discord, to be [00:01:25] totally honest. I do use it quite a bit to chat with folks and there's [00:01:30] groups that I'm involved in, but I'm, like, novice at best when it comes to running Discord, [00:01:35] so.
[00:01:35] Andrew: The first 100 people will get a a, some kind of a [00:01:40] badge.
[00:01:40] Nathan: Oh yeah, that's, that's one of the
[00:01:41] Nathan: elements
[00:01:41] Nathan: of Discord, the so well. Yeah.
[00:01:43] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:01:44] Andrew: Yeah. So there... [00:01:45] Yeah, there's no cost to join, and the intention is to try to have a space where people [00:01:50] can collaborate and talk about stuff and, and try to keep the conversation going. I've talked about [00:01:55] it a lot.
[00:01:55] Andrew: I, I don't want this to be, like, a broadcast-only thing, so that's a spot where folks can [00:02:00] come. There's people in there already, so join us. I, I can't say that there's a [00:02:05] lively chat going on yet, but feel free
[00:02:07] Andrew: to, you you
[00:02:08] Nathan: can start one. Yeah
[00:02:09] Andrew: Yeah. No, [00:02:10] feel free to jump in, and I, I put up a couple channels Of, I [00:02:15] guess the intention for those is that people can share what they're working on or what they're doing, and, [00:02:20] people can comment, or if you have questions or you need testers or whatever you want [00:02:25] don't spam people with shit and don't try to s- you know, con people, but other than that, I don't really [00:02:30] care
[00:02:30] Nathan: Good call. Yeah, don't do those two, two things
[00:02:32] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good place to [00:02:35] come for crazy ideas if you want feedback. And if you can't take [00:02:40] feedback, then probably don't ask. probably have formal rules in there, but I don't know. I feel like if you're [00:02:45] listening to the podcast and enjoy it you should kinda know what you're getting into, but
[00:02:48] Nathan: We'll, we'll figure out the [00:02:50] rules as, as we need to. There's the thing is there's like usually when a, when a rule happens, there's a reason for that rule or [00:02:55] why that rule's
[00:02:55] Andrew: 100%, yeah. No, I, I think the only rule right now is, is something along the lines of [00:03:00] the golden rule, is like don't be an asshole. Treat other people the way that you expect to be [00:03:05] treated in return, and expect people to treat you that way, right? And I understand that that [00:03:10] scares some people 'cause that's open to interpretation, but you'll know if you're being an asshole.
[00:03:14] Nathan: [00:03:15] Honestly, some people don't unfortunately, but
[00:03:17] Nathan: hopefully our audience does. [00:03:20] yeah. You, you do that. Yeah, great. Okay, perfect.
[00:03:22] Andrew: But I don't know. I, I, [00:03:25] I am hoping that there doesn't need to be a big rule [00:03:30] push. I'm not a big rule person. But we'll see. So if people come [00:03:35] in and ruin it, then we'll have rules. But it won't probably impact most people 'cause most people are fine.
[00:03:39] Nathan: [00:03:40] right. yeah.
[00:03:41] Andrew: But yeah.
[00:03:41] Andrew: so that's kinda cool.
[00:03:42] Andrew: I guess new milestone. Yeah, if you still wanna [00:03:45] donate, you can donate on Patreon or Ko-fi. There's links there too. [00:03:50] The goal with monetization of the podcast is to pay for the editing software and the [00:03:55] hosting. That's it.
[00:03:56] Andrew: Like I don't r- I'm not... Yeah. I don't think this is a job. Like maybe [00:04:00] it's a, it feels like a job sometimes 'cause it is sometimes a lot of
[00:04:02] Nathan: it's a hobby, right? They, they, they have those [00:04:05] hobbies where people spend money and don't anticipate ever getting anything back
[00:04:08] Andrew: I like that. It ma- it [00:04:10] sounds
[00:04:10] Nathan: Yeah
[00:04:10] Andrew: a business loss, so it's, yeah, it's a hobby.
[00:04:13] Andrew: I don't remember if I talked about it. [00:04:15] I know, right. Yeah, Yeah, right. No, it's-- I mean, it is technically part of the company, [00:04:20] but, um, it's also pretty... I don't know if we've talked about [00:04:25] numbers, but it's really not that expensive.
[00:04:26] Andrew: I think it's like, should probably look, but it's [00:04:30] 20 something a month for editing software, and then hosting I think is like 10 [00:04:35] bucks. That's not a lot, right? It's, it's not and I, I don't-- never doing ads. We're not, I [00:04:40] don't give a shit about monetization. I don't even think I would do product sponsors, like [00:04:45] maybe, like if it was the right product and maybe if I already use it, you wanna pay me to talk about it, I will.
[00:04:49] Andrew: But [00:04:50] I I, the, podcast industry is growing, what is it? [00:04:55] 23% a year.
[00:04:56] Nathan: it's some, some pretty big
[00:04:57] Nathan: number.
[00:04:58] Nathan: Uh, yeah
[00:04:58] Andrew: but it's still like a tiny, [00:05:00] tiny fraction of the entire market
[00:05:01] Andrew: is monetized, and it's the winner-take-all system [00:05:05] that we have in our society just manifests, I would just say [00:05:10] like you don't have to support us, but if you do have creators or folks you listen to or watch on YouTube [00:05:15] or Twitch.
[00:05:15] Andrew: We're on Twitch too. Support them. Throw them a few bucks. If you don't have a [00:05:20] few bucks tell someone else to, to tune in. Leave a review.[00:05:25]
[00:05:25] Andrew: Yeah, 'cause not everyone
[00:05:25] Andrew: has the money. I get that, right? Yeah. Or yeah,
[00:05:27] Nathan: yeah
[00:05:28] Andrew: in the, the chat or the channel, [00:05:30] as I like totally ignore the chat.
[00:05:31] Andrew: Sorry, chat.
[00:05:33] Nathan: That, I think that was the idea, right? [00:05:35] To,
[00:05:35] Nathan: to have we do have engagement during the live sessions, but very [00:05:40] honestly, we're, we're not super consistent all the time.
[00:05:42] Andrew: Yeah, no, I totally forget about it as soon as we... And I [00:05:45] like, I joke about needing a producer and if the thing ever starts making money, I'd probably [00:05:50] pay someone to come in and
[00:05:51] Nathan: Yeah
[00:05:51] Andrew: wr- try to wrangle me,
[00:05:53] Nathan: Right, right
[00:05:54] Andrew: [00:05:55] probably not enough money in the world
[00:05:56] Andrew: to try to do that job. But yeah.
[00:05:58] Nathan: didn't want, I didn't wanna say it.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Andrew: Oh, many people have tried and many people have said it.
[00:06:03] Andrew: It's totally, [00:06:05] yeah. Well, it's funny though, 'cause it's like it, it
[00:06:07] Andrew: And it's a joke, but for people who don't [00:06:10] know me, it-- Like, I am a creative at the end of the day,[00:06:15]
[00:06:15] Nathan: Mm.
[00:06:15] Andrew: and that's just a personality, right? And it's I think a lot of [00:06:20] people think they're creative, and then they meet a creative and they're like, "Holy shit." It's just different, [00:06:25] right? We're just different. And I, I
[00:06:26] Nathan: Are you able to describe... Yeah, are
[00:06:28] Nathan: you able to describe is it [00:06:30] characteristics or the way you think? Surely probably both, but
[00:06:34] Andrew: Probably [00:06:35] both.
[00:06:35] Nathan: what makes a creative a creative Yeah
[00:06:37] Andrew: yeah, I think yeah, that's-- that's a, that's an [00:06:40] interesting question. Self-reflection. I think [00:06:45] perseverance and grit, number one, is, is you, you're just like doing hard mode the whole [00:06:50] time. Because as a creator, as a creative, you're doing shit that [00:06:55] hasn't been done before or
[00:06:56] Nathan: Yeah
[00:06:57] Andrew: in a way that no one's done before, right?[00:07:00]
[00:07:00] Andrew: If you're just trying to learn stuff, that's Different. I also think [00:07:05] like criticism and critique is very different. It's very intellectual, and[00:07:10]
[00:07:10] Andrew: everyone I know who's a successful creative-- because there's like successful creatives and then there's [00:07:15] unsuccessful creatives.
[00:07:16] Andrew: So I'm gonna talk about s-
[00:07:17] Andrew: I think Yeah about both because it actually fits the [00:07:20] podcast really well.
[00:07:20] Andrew: I wasn't really planning to talk about this, but why not? Y- you [00:07:25] like have to be able to take criticism, but I think a lot of people [00:07:30] confuse that with like you have to then accept it. have to accept [00:07:35] criticism in that people are gonna give it to you. You don't have to necessarily
[00:07:38] Andrew: change what you're doing
[00:07:38] Nathan: you don't have to... Yeah, [00:07:40] exactly. You don't have to take that as the direction that you headed,
[00:07:43] Andrew: And I've had a lot of [00:07:45] conversations with folks who they were very uncomfortable, and I was like: "Thanks for your feedback. I'm not gonna change [00:07:50] anything." And they're like: "Wow, what do you mean?" I'm like: "I'm, I'm not doing it." I, I get [00:07:55] your side of... And then they try to convince you, and I'm like: "No, I understand what you're saying.
[00:07:58] Andrew: I may not even [00:08:00] disagree with it," but I'm like: "We're not doing that," or, "I'm not doing that." so there's, there's [00:08:05] the ability to take feedback. You have to learn and iterate to be a good [00:08:10] creative, and I think you're constantly doing that. It's like nothing is ever done, and, like, we talk about that in [00:08:15] software, where software's never done.
[00:08:16] Andrew: But I think, like, your project is never done, [00:08:20] and the only way that it becomes done is if you hit some kind of constraint, which is typically, [00:08:25] like, if it's software, it's, like, shipping a version or it's like, yeah, you've run out of [00:08:30] money.
[00:08:30] Andrew: You know, if you're an artist,
[00:08:32] Andrew: you know,
[00:08:32] Nathan: right?
[00:08:33] Andrew: no more canvas.
[00:08:34] Andrew: You know, and [00:08:35] you you
[00:08:35] Andrew: know, you can always paint it over. You can go 4D. You know, there's all sorts of stuff that people do, but, [00:08:40] um, there's usually some kind of constraint, and then you're forced by that constraint. [00:08:45] Or y- you try to continuously get out of that constraint, and then y- you're you're [00:08:50] in the non-successful creative bucket because you just never produce anything that's not [00:08:55] for any, for other people's consumption.
[00:08:57] Andrew: It's like part of being a creative is, like, you also have to [00:09:00] have external consumption. And if you want to be creative and do stuff for yourself, that's really [00:09:05] cool do it. But you're not, you're not really a creative in my mind because you need to [00:09:10] be benefiting other people, or other people need to be,
[00:09:13] Andrew: um... Or collaborating, [00:09:15] right? Just I don't-- I hate the idea of consumption it, it's a singular thing [00:09:20] and, like, when I build software, I, I try to ground it a little bit in tech. When I build [00:09:25] software, it, it's great, it's fun, but then [00:09:30] it's like if no one uses it, it's not useful. And, and if, if you're trying to do it to [00:09:35] learn or you're trying to do it to explore, it's useful to you, and that's fine.
[00:09:37] Andrew: And if that's all you ever do, [00:09:40] that's fine, but then you need to accept that that's not being a creative or a [00:09:45] job, or you're not gonna be successful at building a business that way. It's cool if you have a hobby. [00:09:50] But I think people-- And then I think people in the [00:09:55] general populace confuse those two things.
[00:09:57] Andrew: They're like: "Oh, you're a creative," and they roll their [00:10:00] eyes. It's like: "Oh, you never get anything done."
[00:10:02] Nathan: Yeah. Right
[00:10:04] Andrew: That can [00:10:05] be true. If you're a successful creative, then you are getting stuff done, but the [00:10:10] timelines are not the same timelines that people typically operate on.
[00:10:14] Nathan: [00:10:15] Yeah,
[00:10:15] Andrew: A linear timeline doesn't usually mean as much.
[00:10:18] Andrew: And [00:10:20] like corporate culture that has, not everywhere, but a lot of places that, that [00:10:25] doesn't work very well. And in a lot of the tech companies I've worked in, startups, I own [00:10:30] a company, that can be very detrimental if [00:10:35] you don't ever ship anything. However, if you're actually user-focused and trying to [00:10:40] solve problems for your customers, it's-- that's how you print the money[00:10:45]
[00:10:45] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:46] Andrew: What does that mean?
[00:10:48] Andrew: We could go on a whole thing with that, but [00:10:50] it, it, it's literally that simple, and it, it's-- you have to be intellectually honest and measure [00:10:55] the... and then know what you're targeting, right? We're gonna do X thing to solve [00:11:00] Y, and that could take six months, it could take three days. And if it's gonna take six months, you [00:11:05] better be pushing, you better have growth.
[00:11:07] Andrew: And if you don't have growth, maybe you need to prioritize other [00:11:10] stuff that will grow sooner to get you to a position where you have recurrent revenue where [00:11:15] you can experiment more. And then it's mixing experimentation. And that-- And, [00:11:20] and a lot of people might be listening and think, "Oh yeah, that's what I do."
[00:11:22] Andrew: The, yeah. But a lot of other people [00:11:25] have totally no idea. They just look at you like you're some crazy fucking person who can't do [00:11:30] deadlines or can't explain the, the vision. A lot of times I'm like, "I know where we're [00:11:35] going," and that's M- Mars is a great example with Elon. I don't think Elon actually thinks he's [00:11:40] gonna get to Mars in his lifetime.
[00:11:42] Andrew: But that's the eventual [00:11:45] goal. But to get there, you need to build a rocket engine that can propel a rocket. You need to build a rocket that [00:11:50] you can re- so all those steps along the way. And a lot of non-creative people get totally [00:11:55] lost and "Oh, it's too big. It's too big of a problem. It's too much of a derivative."
[00:11:59] Nathan: Oh,
[00:11:59] Andrew: [00:12:00] sure. Okay. But not all of us think that way. it's just like [00:12:05] the, the converse. If you don't get it, that's fine, but then ask questions. "I don't really understand what I should do next," [00:12:10] "How can I
[00:12:11] Nathan: yeah. hmm. Isn't, is that [00:12:15] we talk a lot about curiosity a lot. And I guess you could [00:12:20] argue that part of being a creative is having the curiosity to know what the questions you need to [00:12:25] ask to be able to understand what those roadmaps or those future visions would be, [00:12:30] right?
[00:12:31] Andrew: I would, I would agree with that. That's a probably a core tenet too is, [00:12:35] probably relentless and insatiable. And I almost don't [00:12:40] think of it as curiosity anymore for, 'cause for me it's just, it's just so much of who I am that I'm [00:12:45] just gonna ask questions. And I think the more experience you get as a creative, and I, I [00:12:50] see this in myself a little bit, which I don't necessarily love, it's not a skill that I [00:12:55] necessarily like, but you kind of develop it in that, you push [00:13:00] past so much experience and knowledge that you push past relatability to some ex- [00:13:05] to some extent.
[00:13:06] Andrew: And so, like, when I work with really junior people, [00:13:10] it can work, but it's usually not a good fit because I'm not a very [00:13:15] good teacher. I I I, feel like we've talked about this before. I am. I can [00:13:20] teach. I hate it.
[00:13:21] Andrew: not what I like, right? And so fine, don't [00:13:25] put me with super junior people who don't know what they're doing.
[00:13:27] Andrew: Now, if you put me with a super junior person who's [00:13:30] motivated and can ask questions and learn and from their mistakes and have some [00:13:35] intuition about what they're doing, I can help coach them. I get a little grumpy sometimes, [00:13:40] but, like, I can do that.
[00:13:41] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:13:41] Nathan: yeah
[00:13:42] Andrew: and a lot of people listening to this are probably like, "Oh, he can't work with [00:13:45] people."
[00:13:45] Andrew: No, I can absolutely work with people, but I, I work at a different level than a [00:13:50] lot of other people do, and it's not a superiority thing. It's just that's my skill [00:13:55] set. Yeah, yeah do-- I excel at doing shit that's really, really, really [00:14:00] hard and not necessarily well understood
[00:14:02] Nathan: From, from like the, just [00:14:05] the trying to be objective perspective, that that's what
[00:14:06] Nathan: happens with wisdom in general, right? As you
[00:14:08] Nathan: build a trade [00:14:10] or a domain expertise, sometimes you don't really recognize how, [00:14:15] how far ahead you've established in the, the knowhow that when you go back to having to work with [00:14:20] people who don't have that knowledge it takes a lot of effort regardless of whatever [00:14:25] domain you're in to,
[00:14:25] Andrew: It, yeah, and a lot of
[00:14:27] Andrew: creatives... No, 100%. And a lot of [00:14:30] creatives don't do a very good job of matching people where [00:14:35] they are. And like
[00:14:36] Nathan: Yeah. Okay
[00:14:37] Andrew: I do do this pretty well. I've gotten staff [00:14:40] feedback too, but I don't know if it's lately, but I just
[00:14:44] Nathan: you became that figure [00:14:45] from your AI.
[00:14:45] Andrew: No, I won't. We're
[00:14:47] Nathan: Inside
[00:14:48] Andrew: that.
[00:14:48] Nathan: Inside joke.
[00:14:49] Andrew: Oh, [00:14:50] yes. AI talk later.
[00:14:51] Andrew: Stay tuned. Spoiler. [00:14:55] but I have become far less patient With explaining. [00:15:00] Because it's like I'm, I'm cool doing it like once, and then if you're not [00:15:05] engaged, I just don't have time anymore. And I don't know if that's 'cause I'm old and crotchety and [00:15:10] like a boomer now, but if you're engaged and you're trying, like I'm totally-- like [00:15:15] I, I won't spend 1,000 hours trying to help you, but like I will-- I'm engaged, I will [00:15:20] help you.
[00:15:20] Andrew: It's, it's help someone who's trying to help themselves. But so much of our [00:15:25] like culture has become like do it for me or give me the [00:15:30] information.
[00:15:31] Andrew: And I've seen this with AI, like I sent-- I think I sent you a thing earlier this morning where [00:15:35] someone came up with a website, I should put it up there, where, it's like a response [00:15:40] for somebody who gives you an AI response on instant messaging or something.
[00:15:43] Andrew: It's a common thing people are doing. It's [00:15:45] if I'm asking you for something, I want you. I want Nathan's opinion. I don't [00:15:50] want Nathan to like AI up something. And for the older folks in the crowd, it's [00:15:55] can I-- let me Google that
[00:15:56] Andrew: for you. It's like a website
[00:15:58] Andrew: where someone would ask you [00:16:00] a remedial question or something that like should be probably answerable via a Google [00:16:05] search, and then it was a condescending way to, to let them know.
[00:16:08] Nathan: Yep,
[00:16:08] Nathan: yep, yep. [00:16:10]
[00:16:10] Andrew: But yeah, so I think that's what like a successful creative kind of traits are. Not [00:16:15] exhaustive.
[00:16:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:17] Andrew: I think unsuccessful, the, the primary [00:16:20] thing is like the pursuit of relentless perfection without [00:16:25] constraints. So either you just constantly fail 'cause you are always running out of time or money or, [00:16:30] or whatever, or you don't self-impose.
[00:16:32] Andrew: And I think the really good creative people know [00:16:35] that they will never stop, but they'll know impose a deadline. They'll be like, "By the end of June, I'm gonna do [00:16:40] this," or, "We're gonna set this budget," or, "We're gonna set this timeline because all this other stuff, and then we're gonna [00:16:45] be relentlessly pursuing the most perfect vision of what we can [00:16:50] do in whatever constraint we allot."
[00:16:52] Andrew: And you sel- you learn to self-constrain. But [00:16:55] the folks who don't become successful, or just people who are hobbyists, they just don't ever [00:17:00] finish. And I'm not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing, I'm just like you're not gonna be successful in life if you don't ever [00:17:05] finish anything.
[00:17:06] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:17:06] Nathan: yeah it's so easy, I think, to be, [00:17:10] emotionally driven in your creativity, especially when it comes to art.
[00:17:12] Andrew: Like software's a little different, but there's people who are [00:17:15] very passionate and very emotional about the software, and that's fine.
[00:17:17] Andrew: You can do that. [00:17:20] But especially with art where you just never finish it or it's-- you, you never, [00:17:25] present it. And it, and it... Part of it-- And it, it's interesting, I had an interesting thing we didn't [00:17:30] talk about earlier.
[00:17:32] Andrew: I think I've now come to the [00:17:35] opinion, heard it here first, that the world is not emotionally driven, [00:17:40] the world is ego driven
[00:17:41] Nathan: Okay. Yeah maybe [00:17:45] for-- I think I, I, I don't know how many people are familiar with the, the, the idea of [00:17:50] ego.
[00:17:51] Andrew: Oh, yeah
[00:17:52] Nathan: y- yeah, you want, you wanna elaborate a little bit on, on [00:17:55] your-- how you're using ego here
[00:17:56] Nathan: because I think some people hear ego and they, they have this [00:18:00] they have this idea that ego is just, I would say maybe [00:18:05] self-importance, but that, that's not always the case.
[00:18:07] Nathan: There are [00:18:10] psychological or maybe theoretical constructs around what an ego is,
[00:18:14] Andrew: Yeah
[00:18:14] Nathan: [00:18:15] just, "Oh, I'm all-important." It is just really the idea of being able to see your [00:18:20] perspective or, or
[00:18:21] Nathan: the
[00:18:21] Andrew: Yeah
[00:18:22] Nathan: of your individual experience
[00:18:24] Andrew: I, I agree with that, [00:18:25] frankly. I think my-- I don't know. I don't really know if I have a definition of ego. It's interesting you [00:18:30] say that 'cause I, I forgot that there's the clinical definition, there's the
[00:18:33] Andrew: Freudian, there's all this other [00:18:35] baggage.
[00:18:35] Nathan: Yeah, yeah
[00:18:36] Andrew: Um, so I I have an amalgamated idea, and what I mean by [00:18:40] ego is the
[00:18:42] Andrew: synthesis either, [00:18:45] like, knowingly or unknowingly that everything is [00:18:50] impacting to you. So it is that individualistic idea, it's that singular [00:18:55] lens. And I think people confuse this with, like, the emotionality because a lot of people [00:19:00] are mad that you don't understand my idea or you're an idiot because you [00:19:05] don't understand my idea.
[00:19:06] Andrew: But the, the, the common factor there is the [00:19:10] world against you or something happens that, uh, [00:19:15] you then chalk up to an externality. And
[00:19:18] Andrew: I, I think [00:19:20] that's an, that's an actual ego-driven thing and not necessarily an emotional thing. And the [00:19:25] reason I bring that up is because, like, I generally try to view the world rationally, and a lot [00:19:30] of people will say, "Oh, the world is more emotional and you have to have feelings."
[00:19:33] Andrew: It's like, "Wait, I have feelings and I..." [00:19:35] But it's if you're impulsively running through the world with your feelings [00:19:40] and you're not trying to regulate that at all, it's really unhealthy and you're gonna be really...
[00:19:44] Nathan: there's a, there's [00:19:45] an actual condition
[00:19:45] Nathan: for that if you can't regulate your emotion
[00:19:47] Nathan: yet.
[00:19:48] Andrew: and you're just letting the [00:19:50] entire world overwrite your own emotional state,[00:19:55]
[00:19:55] Nathan: It's like
[00:19:55] Nathan: reaction versus, what's ref- [00:20:00] why
[00:20:00] Nathan: am I brain farting on this? yeah
[00:20:01] Andrew: yeah
[00:20:02] Nathan: like a... You can react versus you [00:20:05] can, I don't know why I'm forgetting this, but something happens and you're instantly doing [00:20:10] something versus taking it in and then
[00:20:12] Andrew: Yeah, it, yeah
[00:20:13] Nathan: how you, you[00:20:15]
[00:20:15] Andrew: Yeah, they, they
[00:20:15] Nathan: Or reacting versus responding. I guess
[00:20:17] Andrew: therapy 101 is, [00:20:20] is like awareness of your reaction or the emotional [00:20:25] state, right? And trying to regulate. And the, the thing that I think is interesting with like rationality [00:20:30] is that it's a learnable skill. There, there's a couple like mental conditions and [00:20:35] brain conditions where you like literally can't-- The other part of the brain that does it doesn't exist.
[00:20:39] Andrew: But [00:20:40] everyone else can learn how to be rational, and that doesn't mean you're some [00:20:45] like, unempathetic, non-feeling person. It's just that you take a [00:20:50] deep breath or you reflect on like why are you feeling. It's, it's a deeper, [00:20:55] analysis of what's going on versus, "You said something, I'm mad, [00:21:00] so I'm gonna be mad now."
[00:21:01] Andrew: Okay, but why are you mad? M- and almost [00:21:05] I think in every case it comes back to I am the center of my [00:21:10] universe and
[00:21:10] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:21:11] Andrew: something has cracked the shield or got broken the [00:21:15] glass, and now I'm really uncomfortable and I'm gonna lash out or be whatever. And I'm not the first [00:21:20] person to come up with this, but I've been like back and forth on this for a little bit.
[00:21:23] Andrew: I, I think it's all ego-driven, and I [00:21:25] think that really changes the way that I look at a lot of stuff in the life.[00:21:30]
[00:21:31] Andrew: And it all makes more sense to me than emotional, 'cause I'm like yeah, there's people who are emotional and they [00:21:35] react emotionally, but I'm like, but it-- But what you then choose to do with that [00:21:40] emotion
[00:21:40] Nathan: Right
[00:21:41] Andrew: tends to also be very ego-focused, right?
[00:21:43] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:21:44] Nathan: [00:21:45] Yeah
[00:21:45] Andrew: like Western society in America, we're so individualistic, which is I think a [00:21:50] really clever way of just saying ego-driven.
[00:21:54] Nathan: No, for, for [00:21:55] sure. I, I think that's absolutely... Coming from an Asian culture and background I, I think that is one of the [00:22:00] key differences. And it's partially also why I think at least when [00:22:05] I look at AI, it's, it's why that is dangerous. It's so slippery because [00:22:10] of this whole AI psychosis element where it just feeds your ego in the sense of [00:22:15] yeah, you're right, actually.
[00:22:16] Nathan: You know,
[00:22:17] Andrew: to do that
[00:22:18] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. It's designed to take [00:22:20] the human feedback that you give it, and it's so supposed to defer to the human feedback. And if you're the, the human feedback, [00:22:25] then yeah, sure, it's gonna take your word for it, right? And it does worry me what happens when you [00:22:30] are say, the next generation and growing up with this technology how do you deal [00:22:35] with other people?
[00:22:35] Nathan: How do you
[00:22:36] Andrew: It's
[00:22:36] Nathan: to regulate?
[00:22:37] Andrew: problem with Instagram and social media, right? [00:22:40] Is it's, it's, it learns what you like and what you don't like, and then it feeds you [00:22:45] both.
[00:22:45] Nathan: Yeah
[00:22:47] Andrew: So yeah, I don't know. I, we're like way... I don't know. I guess we're not, [00:22:50] we don't really ever have topics, but we're,
[00:22:52] Andrew: we're way out of,
[00:22:54] Andrew: uh, where We, [00:22:55] planned to be, I guess.
[00:22:56] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:22:56] Nathan: Yeah, we try to find talk- ways to segue stuff into, but [00:23:00] it doesn't always happen.
[00:23:01] Andrew: Yeah. No. No, that's cool. No, I think that was interesting traits of, of [00:23:05] what makes a s- what is a creative and, like, what is a successful creative I think is, you know... And I, [00:23:10] I, I've said this many times too, I reserve the right to change my opinion with new e-evidence and new [00:23:15] information,
[00:23:16] Andrew: which is also probably a trait of a creative.
[00:23:18] Andrew: It's you, you have your [00:23:20] vision and you wanna execute on that vision, but you have to learn along the way as well.
[00:23:24] Nathan: Yeah [00:23:25]
[00:23:25] Andrew: But yeah, no, I, I think in corporate culture too it, it, it can work really well. I've [00:23:30] worked in some companies that it's been very successful in, but it, it's just most [00:23:35] systems are not designed for that, and I think this is, like, directly [00:23:40] why so many folks are having problems with AI and so many companies are having trouble [00:23:45] integrating AI or adopting AI.
[00:23:47] Andrew: Partly because it's [00:23:50] the most effective way that you can use it is, is executing creativity, [00:23:55] but you also have to be creative in how you use the technology, and you have to be [00:24:00] experimental and learn, and it's, it's not a I do things this [00:24:05] way and it always is gonna work that way.
[00:24:07] Andrew: Which is funny because that's how life is, [00:24:10] right?
[00:24:10] Nathan: Yeah. For sure. For
[00:24:12] Andrew: crazy trying to explain this to people 'cause [00:24:15] I know a lot of people are struggling with using AI and adopting AI, and I'm like, "It's just like life. I guess maybe you [00:24:20] struggle in life. I don't know."
[00:24:21] Nathan: Hey, I mean, life is hard.
[00:24:23] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:24:24] Andrew: Um, [00:24:25] with life.
[00:24:25] Andrew: yeah. And, and so one of the, the things I guess we can talk about [00:24:30] too, so the, the Ship-A-Ton.
[00:24:31] Andrew: I called it, called it Ship-A-Thon last stream.
[00:24:34] Nathan: [00:24:35] Oh, I thought it was called Shivathan. It's called Shivatan. Okay.
[00:24:38] Andrew: a ton.
[00:24:38] Andrew: Yeah. [00:24:40] I know, right? It's not a plug, obviously. For folks who, who [00:24:45] don't remember or are tuning in the Ship a Ton is a conversation or [00:24:50] a, a competition put on by a company to ship as much as you [00:24:55] can in the, in August and September. I mentioned that I was gonna enter a [00:25:00] couple apps as part of this.
[00:25:02] Andrew: One of them is still to be [00:25:05] announced. It's in work. It's gonna be done this weekend. It will be done this weekend. It's [00:25:10] 99.9%. It's just that one-tenth of a percent is the
[00:25:14] Andrew: most [00:25:15] irritating. And AI cannot do anything novel to save its life. [00:25:20] It's really ir- it's really aggravating to hear all these people, "Oh, it's gonna t-take everyone's [00:25:25] job."
[00:25:25] Andrew: And I'm like, "This shit couldn't get out of a wet paper bag." It'd be like, "I don't-- I'm, I'm in the [00:25:30] beginning of the abyss. I don't know where..." "You're in a wet paper bag. Get out." "Oh, I don't know
[00:25:33] Nathan: You
[00:25:34] Andrew: What is a wet [00:25:35] paper bag?" "What are the dimensions?" You give it the dimensions. It's like, "It's [00:25:40] 20 kilograms."
[00:25:40] Andrew: You're like, "That's not a volume."
[00:25:42] Andrew: I don't know. Where did you come up with
[00:25:43] Andrew: that?
[00:25:43] Nathan: right.
[00:25:45] Andrew: So anyway, so yeah. So I, I was gonna show this. So for folks listening, uh, you might wanna [00:25:50] watch the YouTube stream, but I'm gonna try to talk
[00:25:53] Andrew: through this
[00:25:54] Nathan: This is, [00:25:55] this is what they always
[00:25:56] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:25:56] Nathan: what's happening.
[00:25:59] Andrew: This is [00:26:00] DigiCity, and if you're listening, I'll try to describe.
[00:26:02] Andrew: But if you're familiar with any kind of s- [00:26:05] city builder game it's modeled after that. And [00:26:10] so, uh, it's iOS only. Uh, it's not available on the App Store yet. It's going [00:26:15] through the Apple submission. It's probably gonna take a while to get there. And [00:26:20] but it, it is via TestFlight. I'll put the link in the description.
[00:26:24] Andrew: It's not [00:26:25] approved by Apple yet. It has to be approved for TestFlight. It hopefully will be in the next day or two. [00:26:30] It's, it's increasingly frustrating to be working in the App Store with Apple's [00:26:35] slowness. They're a multi-trillion dollar company, and they can't approve stuff on a... I can ship so [00:26:40] much faster than they can approve.
[00:26:42] Andrew: I'm not that
[00:26:43] Andrew: good at ship-
[00:26:44] Nathan: talked about the, the [00:26:45] platform and the, the gatekeeper problem and yeah, right
[00:26:48] Andrew: So anyway, so it's, [00:26:50] uh... Oops, I just built some stuff. I built industrial. Uh, so the idea is that you build a city, [00:26:55] right? And so this is all original artwork, [00:27:00] that I have. And so you need to build commercial [00:27:05] districts for, you know, land development power and water.
[00:27:09] Andrew: You [00:27:10] have to, you know, make every-- You, you build the, the city kind of infrastructure. [00:27:15] And so I'm just kinda building some stuff out on screen. I'm building all the different districts, and [00:27:20] then, um, I'll turn the key. So I have a pause function down there so you can build stuff if you [00:27:25] wanna build.
[00:27:27] Andrew: Build a power plant, put [00:27:30] some power lines in
[00:27:32] Andrew: Let's see if we can get a city to build [00:27:35] here. Give it some water Doesn't flow uphill, [00:27:40] unlike some city builder games where water flows uphill. [00:27:45] So the, the mechanics are pretty rudimentary today, to be like fully [00:27:50] Transparent. so we have power and water with everything, right? So we'll see if we-
[00:27:54] Andrew: So I'm [00:27:55] just gonna inspect. So I have power line and so yeah. So you can look at the [00:28:00] you can improve the land kind of thing and build a city. We start at [00:28:05] 1900 I don't know why it's not... Maybe there's a bug
[00:28:08] Nathan: Joys of [00:28:10] deviling life.
[00:28:10] Andrew: I know, right? I literally just showed this to you like moments ago. It
[00:28:14] Andrew: does work, [00:28:15] so I don't... I know, right before we started. I mean, this is part of, you know, the [00:28:20] city builder games if you've played them. Like it doesn't, just because you build it doesn't mean they will [00:28:25] come. And that, you
[00:28:26] Andrew: know, that's part of the logic.
[00:28:27] Andrew: So it could just, it could just take a while or I [00:28:30] didn't do something right. But yeah, so that's kinda the idea, and [00:28:35] then as stuff develops, the buildings change. I guess I can restart the-- And I am running in the [00:28:40] iOS simulator, so it's like shit gets weird just in general. [00:28:45] So I'm assuming that's probably the issue. But yeah, so that's it. That's, that's [00:28:50] basically the game, and then you you, have a bigger map.
[00:28:52] Andrew: I can't zoom 'cause I'm on the [00:28:55] stupid sim. Zooming works on the actual iPad, but it doesn't work in the sim for some [00:29:00] reason, and like welcome to development. But I guess-- Oh, maybe I'll go back here. The, the cool [00:29:05] thing, or maybe, I don't know if it's cool for some people, but the game is totally [00:29:10] free to play, and if you wanna save the game and you go to save the first time, you get [00:29:15] a little description here that says you have to pay.
[00:29:18] Andrew: And so it's a one-time purchase for 10 [00:29:20] bucks, and you get saving, and then you get the rest of the game [00:29:25] effectively for free. And so i-i-it's kind of a shareware-y idea, [00:29:30] I guess maybe that if for younger folks...
[00:29:32] Nathan: Back in the day, yeah
[00:29:34] Andrew: you used to just get [00:29:35] software and like you would pay to unlock pr- levels or saving or [00:29:40] something like that, and so that's a different spin.
[00:29:43] Andrew: But there's, yeah, there's no time box [00:29:45] bullshit, there's no loot box crap. It's just like you can build the city. [00:29:50] Again, very rudimentary. This is a week of work,
[00:29:54] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:29:54] Andrew: [00:29:55] So I went from literally an idea to nothing, and then, [00:30:00] now we have the sim. And I'll be adding a bunch more stuff. So [00:30:05] one of the mechanics that's already in there is like inflation is real in the game.
[00:30:09] Nathan: yeah, yeah. I thought
[00:30:09] Andrew: [00:30:10] It's...
[00:30:10] Nathan: to see how
[00:30:11] Nathan: that, uh
[00:30:11] Andrew: so you have to build-- A lot of [00:30:15] the city builders, you just kinda build, stuff will happen. There'll be like disasters or something or [00:30:20] riots and fires and stuff. But I built an inflationary tactic, so you have to kinda [00:30:25] manage the economy a little bit. Industrial is gonna be in vogue for a long time, and then it won't, [00:30:30] and then you'll need to or your housing market will crash, those kinda things.
[00:30:33] Andrew: And, I'm gonna [00:30:35] add borrowing in there somewhere too, and so inflation's gonna be much more critical for [00:30:40] borrowing and like being able to deflate the currency versus... So I'm trying to add some fun mechanics in [00:30:45] there that I don't want the game to be like super hard, 'cause there's a lot of city builders that are like...[00:30:50]
[00:30:50] Andrew: I think it's like Cities: Skyline, you have to have the slope of the pipe right or it doesn't [00:30:55] like
[00:30:55] Andrew: work.
[00:30:55] Nathan: like the, yeah, some focus more on like the physics
[00:30:58] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:30:58] Nathan: cities and then some [00:31:00] more like e-economic simulation
[00:31:03] Andrew: so if you're into that, Digi City's probably not [00:31:05] for you. But if you're looking for just a fun little city builder game that you can kinda, [00:31:10] build and design the city that you want and adds kind of stuff and [00:31:15] have some... I think I'll probably have different modes. So maybe there'll be like an economic challenges [00:31:20] mode or like a, a growth challenge mode and try to make the game [00:31:25] challengeable 'cause it, it's, it's right now it's not super hard, to be honest.
[00:31:29] Andrew: You gotta [00:31:30] balance supply and demand. But But
[00:31:32] Nathan: Yeah so, if you're interested in, in [00:31:35] that, um, you can I guess join the Discord and if you wanna see something, do it. I'll get the [00:31:40] test flight up, you know, as soon as Apple approves it. You can download it, play it for free. If you have feedback, [00:31:45] feel free to send it.
[00:31:46] Andrew: And the... Yeah, so I'll be submitting [00:31:50] this, to the ShipIt time. I don't even know what it's called.
[00:31:53] Nathan: yeah. That's right. I think that's
[00:31:54] Nathan: [00:31:55] right. Yeah. We, we just, we just mentioned it. I told you where it was. Yes, I
[00:31:58] Nathan: Right. Yeah. I don't know [00:32:00] if there's a... I, I guess you go to the website there and you'll see it eventually. I don't, I don't know how it works to be [00:32:05] totally honest, and maybe it'll be too hard to submit the paperwork. I don't know. but yeah, submitting [00:32:10] under the game category if you have another idea for a game or something, go do it, right?
[00:32:14] Andrew: Like again, I, not [00:32:15] necessarily an endorsement, but think it's probably a, a [00:32:20] reputable, reputable thing.
[00:32:22] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:32:22] Nathan: So
[00:32:22] Nathan: I mean, in, in our Discord, maybe one of the things we [00:32:25] can do, and I'll leave this to, to you to decide, uh, create a channel for it, because one of the things for the [00:32:30] Discord was this sort of collaboration and this feedback Yeah
[00:32:33] Nathan: [00:32:35] Loop, I guess. I mean, back in, in the... I mean, still, people still do this now, but you have like a contact [00:32:40] or you email issue submission support request or whatever it is.
[00:32:43] Nathan: But I think one of the [00:32:45] things with Discord is it's semi-real time, so that,
[00:32:48] Nathan: um, it's, it's a bit [00:32:50] easier to get engaged on, providing feedback or if you are interested, I don't know, [00:32:55] maybe collaborating. I don't know if they want to expand it out. Some of the ideas you mentioned are really cool, I think
[00:32:59] Andrew: Yeah. No, [00:33:00] and
[00:33:00] Nathan: economies stuff
[00:33:02] Andrew: And I, I like, I, I don't-- [00:33:05] I wanted a city builder for iOS and it didn't exist
[00:33:08] Nathan: Yeah, this was very much... Yeah, yeah,
[00:33:09] Nathan: we [00:33:10] talked about it. This is very much of a, yeah, this was your own solve your own problem thing, and then,
[00:33:13] Andrew: Yeah. people are [00:33:15] interested.
[00:33:15] Nathan: To
[00:33:15] Nathan: be honest, some friends. built out. Yeah.
[00:33:17] Andrew: Yeah, I talked to some friends. They were into it, [00:33:20] and I was like, "Great. I don't know why no one's really done this." [00:33:25] but I did, and I don't know if I'm gonna open source it or not yet. I haven't really decided. I [00:33:30] don't see why I wouldn't, other than it like... Oh, did I just [00:33:35] crash?
[00:33:35] Andrew: Oh
[00:33:36] Andrew: I have AI AI-ing in the background too.
[00:33:39] Nathan: [00:33:40] Oh.
[00:33:40] Andrew: Which is probably... Yeah, I don't do that and try to record video [00:33:45] and stream to the internet. But yeah, so that, that's New City. But yeah, I, I, I think [00:33:50] I'll open source it. I haven't done it yet. The only reason the only hesitation I have is it [00:33:55] just adds a layer of complexity, and I'm trying to do this ship a ton and [00:34:00] ship stuff as fast as I can and show that process.
[00:34:03] Andrew: But the best way to [00:34:05] show that other than me literally sitting here on a terminal and doing it is probably to just have that source [00:34:10] and you can go play with it yourself
[00:34:12] Andrew: Want or make it better. I don't really [00:34:15] care.
[00:34:15] Andrew: Um, Yeah, and the-- I'm-- I have some other ideas for [00:34:20] monetization, so one of the parts of the competition is, like, how do you-- like, a clever way to monetize.[00:34:25]
[00:34:25] Andrew: And so I don't wanna get too much into that on stream 'cause it is a competition. [00:34:30] I think the grand prize is 30,000 bucks or something. So, you know[00:34:35]
[00:34:35] Andrew: It was pretty-- it was...
[00:34:36] Nathan: with, yeah,
[00:34:36] Nathan: there's several sponsors with different, [00:34:40] challenges I guess you would call them, and
[00:34:41] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:34:41] Nathan: buckets. So
[00:34:42] Andrew: Yeah, so Yeah, so I, I don't wanna give away all the [00:34:45] cards up front either, but in terms of like mechanics and stuff, yeah, I'm, I'm always down [00:34:50] for, for that. And then after it's submitted, after September 30th, I'm [00:34:55] down to if people are really into it and wanna we
[00:34:57] Nathan: Yeah, that'd be cool
[00:34:58] Andrew: run our own three eight [00:35:00] developathon or something like...
[00:35:02] Andrew: I, I don't know. I've [00:35:05] never d- I've never built a game. That's not true. I built a game once. I should tr- I should talk [00:35:10] about that. That, that was fun. So when I was back once upon a time when I was in programming [00:35:15] school
[00:35:15] Nathan: Was it a boot camp or actually programming school?
[00:35:18] Andrew: No, it was actually programming [00:35:20] school. It was CS 101 and it was [00:35:25] programming in C
[00:35:28] Nathan: Yeah
[00:35:29] Andrew: with no [00:35:30] IDE
[00:35:30] Nathan: Oh, fun. Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:32] Andrew: Yep and write your text file, and then you run the compiler [00:35:35] on it, and then if it
[00:35:36] Andrew: And make a lot of mistakes and swear a lot. Yeah. [00:35:40] So yeah, so I, I I was a computer science student once upon a time, [00:35:45] and so yeah, CS 101 or CS-- Yeah, I think it was CS 101, [00:35:50] was Introduction to Programming Mythology or whatever the hell [00:35:55] every computer science
[00:35:55] Andrew: class, right?
[00:35:56] Nathan: mythology.
[00:35:57] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:35:58] Andrew: It, it was yeah, it [00:36:00] was, it was where you start to learn the basics of [00:36:05] how computers work and algorithms and different types of [00:36:10] functions and logic and all that kind of stuff.
[00:36:12] Andrew: And a lot of people in the class knew that going in, so you have the [00:36:15] remedial and then, I, I don't know for folks who know C, but, or, [00:36:20] or like memory management, and with C there's, you have to run [00:36:25] your own memory managers. You have to tell the computer how much
[00:36:27] Andrew: space you need. [00:36:30] And so what that means in, in productive terms is if you open a, a, an [00:36:35] application on your phone or on your computer, the program has to effectively [00:36:40] tell the computer, your phone or the, the computer you're on, "I need, you know, this [00:36:45] many, you know, memory."
[00:36:48] Andrew: And then if you go to, [00:36:50] say an email program, you click open an email that email is gonna require memory. [00:36:55] And so maybe it comes from the application itself. Maybe you need more, right? And then so [00:37:00] there's-- You have to do all, which is very, very hard to do in the modern world and t-t-- it's [00:37:05] just hard in, in general.
[00:37:05] Andrew: Most languages now are memory safe or have that kind of solved [00:37:10] for, and even C Plus has more memory safety kind of stuff functions.[00:37:15]
[00:37:15] Nathan: Yep
[00:37:15] Andrew: And then there's also, a bunch of different [00:37:20] built-in functions. There's a bunch of within the language, but then there's also a bunch of, like, library [00:37:25] kind of systems that are there as well.
[00:37:27] Andrew: And so it was learning all that kind of stuff and, like, [00:37:30] how to get information in and out of a, you know... All this kind of-- Anyone who's ever programmed, [00:37:35] you know, it's basic, that kind of stuff. And I think it was the [00:37:40] final for the midterm. It was either the final for the class or the midterm. I don't [00:37:45] remember now.
[00:37:45] Andrew: We had to create a game
[00:37:47] Nathan: Mm.
[00:37:48] Andrew: In C,
[00:37:49] Nathan: [00:37:50] Yeah. sucked. It was actually fun, but it sucked 'cause
[00:37:54] Andrew: We [00:37:55] didn't-- I don't rem- I don't think we even got it... We didn't get it... A lot of the, the [00:38:00] assignments towards the end specifically were like we'd get like skeleton code [00:38:05] or we would get
[00:38:05] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get
[00:38:06] Andrew: files to build
[00:38:07] Nathan: gets the, the infrastructure up. Yeah, [00:38:10] yeah.
[00:38:10] Nathan: Right, right. Yeah. That was
[00:38:11] Andrew: the first half of the class was open a text file that's [00:38:15] blank and build the program
[00:38:17] Andrew: from scratch. So that [00:38:20] sucked.
[00:38:20] Andrew: Um, I think we complained so much he was like, "Okay, well, I'll give you some like boilerplate [00:38:25] code to like..." And this was before like, like Stack Exchange was really popular. Like it was [00:38:30] around, but it wasn't...
[00:38:32] Andrew: Like the internet was helpful but not at the same [00:38:35] time, and you couldn't just like Google a lot of the stuff that you can now. People were still you would get [00:38:40] the O'Reilly C
[00:38:42] Andrew: book, Bible or whatever it was called.[00:38:45]
[00:38:45] Nathan: 24 hours, kind of this...
[00:38:46] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:38:47] Andrew: Yeah, Coding for Dummies, those kind of things, and then [00:38:50] a lot of like in-person communication with people and like upperclassmen and like we had some [00:38:55] people come in and help and...
[00:38:57] Andrew: But yeah, so the, the, the quest was to create a [00:39:00] game. Anything you wanted. And we, I think we were limited to text because like we [00:39:05] didn't, we, the, the next class was computer graphics [00:39:10] and advanced input/output or something like that. And I don't know if [00:39:15] anybody's played a text-based game before, but it's very [00:39:20] different
[00:39:20] Nathan: Yeah, they called them MUDs back in the day,
[00:39:22] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:39:22] Andrew: Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:39:25] And I, yeah, I grew up playing some of these, so it's like I kinda got the concept, but I... People now might not have [00:39:30] any idea what I'm talking about. And, the-- If, if you've ever read one of the [00:39:35] Choose Your Own Adventure books, that was what the style that I kinda went after was
[00:39:39] Andrew: there was a [00:39:40] very loose story
[00:39:41] Andrew: And then, uh, it was a little bit of like a dungeon crawler. So you're like [00:39:45] kinda navigating a world [00:39:50] and, there was no map. Like you couldn't really see where you were going, so you had to kinda keep track of it, which is very typical [00:39:55] of these kinda games 'cause like you just, you didn't know, like I didn't probably know how to do it.
[00:39:59] Andrew: [00:40:00] I did have a couple things I was really proud of where, it would [00:40:05] print out like a kind of a ASCII
[00:40:08] Nathan: Yeah, the ASCII maps. [00:40:10] Yeah, yeah, the
[00:40:10] Nathan: representation of So you're--
[00:40:13] Andrew: If you can think about trying [00:40:15] to navigate your house with a blindfold, that's how the game was. So you're, you're go forward, go [00:40:20] back, take a left, take a right, and then you-- it's like you hit a wall.
[00:40:23] Andrew: What do you do? You take a left, [00:40:25] oh, you found a door. Can you open it? Th- so there's those kind of challenges and very [00:40:30] rudimentary. But you ha- we had to program all this shit by hand,
[00:40:34] Nathan: Mm.[00:40:35]
[00:40:35] Andrew: right? And so you get into loops, and you get into functions very quickly. So I had a door [00:40:40] function.
[00:40:40] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:40:41] Andrew: And for folks who don't understand that every time you would [00:40:45] hit a door, I had predefined door function, quote-unquote, which had...[00:40:50]
[00:40:50] Andrew: You could open it. I think I had a random locked property. So, [00:40:55] like, you had a random chance of, having it locked, and then you would be [00:41:00] presented with some kind of a decision tree of, like can you bat it down, or can you [00:41:05] kick it in, or maybe you have a key or something you found or s- you know, just kind of your basic game.
[00:41:09] Andrew: All that had to [00:41:10] be programmed by scratch. And there were, there were stipulations. Like, we had to use randomness, we had to [00:41:15] use text in/out, we had to use, We had to [00:41:20] u- we had to also keep score,
[00:41:22] Nathan: Oh, okay. I was thinking something like array management
[00:41:24] Andrew: [00:41:25] Yeah. Yes, it's, it's exactly. And then, I had items that you [00:41:30] found along the way that you could keep.
[00:41:32] Andrew: Yep. And I f- there's one other thing. I think we [00:41:35] had to sort somehow. There was some kind of, like
[00:41:36] Nathan: Oh, yeah. Sure,
[00:41:38] Andrew: Yeah. So it's it's all the basic [00:41:40] principles of programming that you had to demonstrate you knew how to do. [00:41:45] And so I did my game and it, it was, I don't know, there was a few levels, and it also it couldn't have been so [00:41:50] complex that you couldn't...
[00:41:51] Andrew: I think you had to get, be able to get through it in 10 minutes or something, right? So you had to focus it [00:41:55] in. But I remember the final battle was against the professor
[00:41:59] Nathan: That's commonly [00:42:00] done, yeah.
[00:42:00] Andrew: I know, right? But I made it a little, a little bit of a twist. So it's like you get [00:42:05] to the boss, right? So it's your typical end of the game kind of boss battle. And [00:42:10] if you didn't find a weapon along the way, you were basically screwed. You
[00:42:13] Andrew: failed. nice. Yeah,
[00:42:14] Nathan: yeah [00:42:15] If you found a weapon, you would have a random hit chance, which [00:42:20] is pretty rudimentary game, right?
[00:42:21] Andrew: So it's like you swing and then you get a some sort [00:42:25] of integer return, I think. And then, uh, the fun part was, though, is the [00:42:30] only way to kill the monster was you had to segfault or [00:42:35] something. So you had to create something undetermined.
[00:42:36] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:42:37] Andrew: And so in, in, in C [00:42:40] a segfault is if the, the, if you do something wrong [00:42:45] or the, the logic
[00:42:46] Andrew: is
[00:42:46] Nathan: memory or yeah, yeah,
[00:42:47] Andrew: yeah
[00:42:48] Andrew: Then the [00:42:50] language basically ceases the program to protect the rest of the operating system, or the [00:42:55] operating system will kill the program to protect itself from crashing [00:43:00] or and you had to find the s- the segfault dagger, and then you had to read [00:43:05] in the assignment file to do extra damage. Otherwise, you would [00:43:10] just never win.
[00:43:11] Nathan: Nice.
[00:43:12] Andrew: And I remember getting... So you had to submit it back in the day in [00:43:15] some fucking portal, or it was actually a shared drive. And I remember getting an email from [00:43:20] him, being like, " I can't figure out how to win your [00:43:25] game."
[00:43:25] Andrew: And so we had to give the source, right? And so anyone who's written software, like the [00:43:30] source is the blueprint and has all the information of how the thing works. And I don't [00:43:35] remember what I did, but I made it in such-- I basically encrypted the [00:43:40] source using,
[00:43:41] Andrew: um, a bunch of complicated logic and functions [00:43:45] so that it was really, really difficult to trace.
[00:43:48] Andrew: And so you basically [00:43:50] either had to just figure it out and, and be painful traced [00:43:55] or, This is the one line program
[00:43:58] Nathan: Oh yeah. Oh okay. [00:44:00] yeah.
[00:44:00] Nathan: you just had everything in thing in one line.
[00:44:02] Andrew: And so for anyone who's, who's worked with, [00:44:05] with programming and, and code that's impossible to [00:44:10] work with. You just can't unless it's
[00:44:11] Andrew: super, super simple. And so typically you have, [00:44:15] like you would in a Word document, you'd have space between paragraphs and, and [00:44:20] letters and words, and I wrote it all in one fucking line.
[00:44:24] Andrew: In addition to [00:44:25] that, I did some other kind of shitty stuff because I like was
[00:44:27] Andrew: kind of mad at the process require you to [00:44:30] provide actual real source.
[00:44:32] Andrew: That. No, I did. But the source was in [00:44:35] one
[00:44:35] Andrew: line. Yeah, yeah. No, but that's
[00:44:36] Andrew: Yeah. And, and surprised he didn't just say, [00:44:40] "Hey, give me everything
[00:44:41] Nathan: properly formatted."
[00:44:43] Andrew: I know. But so I think he, [00:44:45] he... The email was, "I can't figure out how to win the game." And I think I there was [00:44:50] hints in the, the, the quest as you were going through exploring, you would get hints. I was [00:44:55] like, "Well, just follow the hints," 'cause I'm a 18-year-old shithead.
[00:44:58] Andrew: And [00:45:00] but then he, I got another email back like a couple minutes later. He's like, "I need to be able to complete the game for you [00:45:05] Yeah. to g-- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:07] Andrew: So then I, I think I, I gave him another hint and then he, he [00:45:10] figured it out. But he, yeah, he pushed back on me. He, but, but like to his [00:45:15] credit, he didn't specify in the assignment that the code had to be readable
[00:45:19] Nathan: yeah, [00:45:20] yeah, yeah. You could just give him byte code.
[00:45:22] Andrew: All previous assignments, [00:45:25] the code had to be human readable
[00:45:27] Andrew: and formatted.
[00:45:28] Nathan: interesting. Interesting[00:45:30]
[00:45:30] Andrew: what I ended up doing too is a lot of The, We had to write a bunch [00:45:35] of functions for to do shit, and so I think what I ended up doing is decide I didn't wanna do that, [00:45:40] and so I hard-coded a lot of stuff to work.
[00:45:42] Nathan: It's acceptable for games
[00:45:43] Nathan: actually a
[00:45:44] Andrew: it wasn't [00:45:45] acceptable in the, yeah, in the, the assignment.
[00:45:47] Nathan: yeah, yeah.
[00:45:49] Andrew: 'cause we [00:45:50] all ran out of time, right? And anyone who's done these kind of things, like y- you have this brilliant idea of this [00:45:55] beautiful game you're gonna make, and then it's like night and you're like, "Oh my God, I've [00:46:00] spent two days on this," and the thing barely works or doesn't compile or [00:46:05] whatever, right?
[00:46:06] Andrew: And that's part of it, right? You, you just learn the cons- But yeah, so I, I [00:46:10] hard-coded a bunch of shit that I wasn't supposed to do either, and then I, I named the doctor [00:46:15] so and so a sore or something like that, and that was probably not the best decision to [00:46:20] make to get a... And, and he tried, he told me he spent I think he said he spent like 30 [00:46:25] minutes trying to reconstruct the code to make it function. He said, "I, I couldn't make it [00:46:30] work."
[00:46:30] Nathan: Yeah. Fun.
[00:46:32] Andrew: So don't do that. TLDR.
[00:46:33] Nathan: in some weird [00:46:35] way, your, your anecdote is bringing it full circle. So to right?
[00:46:38] Nathan: you as a creative, this [00:46:40] is what you decide to do to demonstrate that you're a creative.
[00:46:42] Andrew: I know, right? So don't do that. It, it [00:46:45] like in, in a, a professional environment or whatever, like 90% of the problem of [00:46:50] code is like making sure other people can understand what the hell you're doing, right? It's not actually writing the code or solving [00:46:55] problems
[00:46:55] Nathan: yeah, exactly
[00:46:56] Andrew: But yeah, for the assignment, I was kinda mad at...
[00:46:58] Andrew: 'Cause it was, it was too [00:47:00] much to do in the time we were allotted, especially for a midterm. And [00:47:05] everybody agreed. Like, we ended up having to cut a bunch of stuff 'cause like everyone was like, "We're all gonna fail 'cause we [00:47:10] can't... We're not good enough at programming," or just I don't know, it was just too hard.[00:47:15]
[00:47:15] Andrew: Which I guess happens, and this was the first time they taught the class this way, and I guess they moved it [00:47:20] from I think it was Visual Basic to
[00:47:22] Nathan: Nice to see. Yeah,
[00:47:23] Nathan: yeah.
[00:47:24] Andrew: already [00:47:25] C is just hard mode in general especially to learn. It's a lot easier now, [00:47:30] especially C Plus offers a lot of stuff that is nice, and he, like we were forbidden from using that [00:47:35] because it has, like garbage-esque [00:47:40] collection,
[00:47:40] Nathan: Convenience. Yeah, yeah
[00:47:42] Andrew: memory safe
[00:47:43] Nathan: yeah. Yeah
[00:47:44] Andrew: and [00:47:45] functions.
[00:47:45] Andrew: But, so I, I guess I've made a game. It was not a good game, but it did [00:47:50] not fail me. I passed the class. I don't remember what I got. I think I got like [00:47:55] a C minus on the assignment, and it was only because it worked. And he was like, "I can't [00:48:00] verify why it works, but it works." So don't do that either
[00:48:03] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, that's the [00:48:05] best, the best grade you can get, just barely passing.
[00:48:07] Nathan: Uh
[00:48:07] Andrew: should have, right? I, looking back, I'm like, yeah, I [00:48:10] pro- that was like a, kind of a mean thing to do, but... Uh, he's a good guy. Like, we got [00:48:15] along, you know, really well, but it was just one of those things where it's just like 18-year-old me, I [00:48:20] guess.
[00:48:20] Andrew: But so yeah, so this is a much better game, and it has
[00:48:22] Andrew: graphics. DigiCity. [00:48:25] You mentioned you were submitting it to the app stores. Is there a, a expected time where you hope that, that [00:48:30] that's up there and available? No? It's whenever Apple decides to approve,
[00:48:33] Andrew: Yeah. So [00:48:35] last, two weeks ago we talked about it a little bit, I think. I have an app that I've had up [00:48:40] for a long time,
[00:48:41] Andrew: and it's been over a week now and they haven't approved it, and [00:48:45] I submitted another app that we have that took seven days [00:48:50] and two hours
[00:48:51] Nathan: Here.
[00:48:52] Andrew: And there was no notes or anything. It was im- immediate-- It [00:48:55] was-- I, I think I sent you this.
[00:48:56] Andrew: It was in feedback review for three [00:49:00] minutes.
[00:49:00] Nathan: longest time. And then
[00:49:01] Nathan: it, yeah,
[00:49:02] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, So Right,
[00:49:04] Andrew: in review [00:49:05] purgatory. Nobody... So the process is you s- you, you submit the app, it goes to Apple. Apple then [00:49:10] starts to review it. You get a notification saying "in review." That usually takes a few hours. [00:49:15] Sometimes it takes a couple days, just de- depending on what you're doing or who, who's doing it.
[00:49:18] Andrew: It was literally in review by [00:49:20] Apple for three minutes. It was approved and then shipped to the store. So I waited literally seven days [00:49:25] and two hours. So I hope this will be quick. I-- It's got payments attached to [00:49:30] it, so Apple tends to be a little slower on that for probably good reason. Trying to make sure I'm not scamming [00:49:35] people.
[00:49:36] Nathan: Yeah. Okay.
[00:49:37] Andrew: yeah.
[00:49:37] Nathan: yeah.
[00:49:38] Nathan: Check out DigiCity.
[00:49:39] Andrew: Yeah, [00:49:40] join the Discord
[00:49:41] Nathan: Yeah, Yeah, join the Discord?
[00:49:42] Nathan: and, yeah, come get... come talk to [00:49:45] us guess. Come talk to us,
[00:49:49] Andrew: Well, I love-- I [00:49:50] don't know. I-- If people are like, "Oh, you're sounding so unsure," I'm like, "I don't wanna obligate people," [00:49:55] it's like
[00:49:55] Nathan: yeah, yeah
[00:49:56] Andrew: part
[00:49:56] Andrew: of the, whole thing is like if you're interested, then you come and [00:50:00] check it out and make, make it what you wanna see. If you're not interested, you won't do [00:50:05] it, and I, I'm cool with that, right?
[00:50:06] Andrew: Like, again, I don't, I'm not under some delusion of grandeur. I don't even think [00:50:10] I want this to be a podcast where like billions of people are watching it, right? That'd just be okay, [00:50:15] but like it's totally change the intent of what, what I'm trying to
[00:50:18] Andrew: do, right?
[00:50:19] Nathan: Yeah. [00:50:20] And we're big on
[00:50:20] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:50:21] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:50:21] Nathan: yeah.
[00:50:22] Andrew: If we ever get there, we'll figure it out,
[00:50:24] Nathan: [00:50:25] Yeah.
[00:50:25] Nathan: Cool
[00:50:26] Andrew: Awesome. Happy Thursday. Thursday.
[00:50:28] Nathan: Thursday. Yeah, yeah.
[00:50:29] Andrew: All right. [00:50:30] Take care.