[00:00:00] Andrew: Hello
[00:00:00] Nathan: Hey, how's it going?
[00:00:02] Andrew: Good. Before I forget, we have a Discord [00:00:05] now
[00:00:05] Nathan: Yeah. It's, it's I don't think much is happening there, but join it and [00:00:10] find
[00:00:10] Andrew: No, there's, yeah, there's, there's a slow stream of people joining, I don't really [00:00:15] Discord, I probably should. I know a lot of people do, but yeah, go jump in. [00:00:20] Feel free to talk about what you're building. It's the theme I guess now for the next few [00:00:25] weeks. But yeah, otherwise I'm good.
[00:00:26] Andrew: Been-- Traveled out of the country. I'm back in the [00:00:30] country. I'm-- been really head down the last 10 days or so, but[00:00:35]
[00:00:35] Nathan: You said, you said travel out of the country. You went across the border and then you came back.
[00:00:39] Andrew: [00:00:40] Canada's a different country
[00:00:41] Nathan: Yeah. No, I, I, I know. I
[00:00:43] Nathan: recognize that.
[00:00:43] Andrew: who you talk to.[00:00:45]
[00:00:45] Nathan: Yeah. Yes. Let's not, let's not go there. We don't wanna invite the wrong [00:00:50] crowd to Discord.
[00:00:51] Andrew: I just wanna say that I fully recognize Lake Ontario [00:00:55] and not giving two shits about what the president has decided to [00:01:00] call Lake Ontario, which I believe is now Lake America if you're in America
[00:01:04] Nathan: I did not [00:01:05] realize this. I, I'm,
[00:01:06] Andrew: Oh,
[00:01:07] Andrew: yeah, that, that's where I thought you didn't wanna go
[00:01:09] Nathan: [00:01:10] No, no, I, I was not... I didn't-- I, I know, I know there's been conversation around making [00:01:15] Canada the 52nd state and stuff like that.
[00:01:17] Andrew: Yes.
[00:01:18] Nathan: to. Yeah, Yeah.
[00:01:19] Nathan: But I didn't know, I [00:01:20] didn't know the
[00:01:20] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:01:21] Nathan: thing.
[00:01:21] Nathan: Okay. Okay.
[00:01:22] Andrew: Yeah, so I think, I don't know, it happened sometime last [00:01:25] week. Yeah, so I, I think it's still Lake Ontario. I think it'll always be called Lake Ontario.
[00:01:29] Nathan: There was something with the [00:01:30] Gulf of Mexico as well
[00:01:31] Andrew: Yeah, that's now technically the Gulf of America.
[00:01:34] Nathan: Sure. [00:01:35]
[00:01:35] Andrew: Lake Ontario has been called Lake Ontario for several hundred years, right?
[00:01:39] Andrew: It's like, [00:01:40] it's not like it's some new invention. And I think just p- I, I don't know. [00:01:45] I'm fine saying I think it's fucking stupid, and it doesn't really do anything that's [00:01:50] useful, and it just, it's d- divisive, and it's just like Canada's a, been a great partner [00:01:55] to America. Awesome people. I love Canada. I love going there.
[00:01:58] Andrew: I love the people in Canada. [00:02:00] I've frankly never had a bad experience. It's a great place.
[00:02:04] Nathan: [00:02:05] Hmm
[00:02:05] Andrew: They're, we're similar culturally, we're similar historically. We're very different in a lot of different ways, [00:02:10] too, so it's a really fun place to go if getting out of America into Canada. It's it's almost like [00:02:15] uncanny valley 'cause everything's pretty similar, but it's also kinda different.
[00:02:19] Andrew: The signs [00:02:20] for road stuff are just a little bit different.
[00:02:23] Nathan: Yeah
[00:02:24] Andrew: You're [00:02:25] fine. You figure it out very quickly, but you're... Like, they have one sign there's road construction going [00:02:30] into Vancouver, and it's like a truck that's [00:02:35] half sideways, and then there's, like, all these bumps that it's either [00:02:40] falling off of or getting launched from.
[00:02:42] Andrew: I have no idea what this sign means, but it's my new favorite [00:02:45] sign in Canada
[00:02:46] Nathan: That, that reminds me of, of some like mountainside [00:02:50] streets
[00:02:50] Andrew: Right? Yeah
[00:02:52] Nathan: for falling rocks or something.
[00:02:54] Andrew: Yeah. So [00:02:55] I, I have no idea what it means, and it's clearly some kind of construction thing, right? But I'm just like, [00:03:00] "That's a fucking cool sign. Good job, Canada." But yeah, so anyway, the, the president of the United States [00:03:05] declared the na- the name change, and I think for folks there's a lot of people who are, like, [00:03:10] mad or happy for this.
[00:03:11] Andrew: The reality is the president can only [00:03:15] make those declarations for the federal government,
[00:03:18] Nathan: Hmm.
[00:03:18] Andrew: right? So only the [00:03:20] offices that the executive branch controls are bound to this [00:03:25] order
[00:03:25] Nathan: Yeah. Okay
[00:03:26] Andrew: So it's not a law. I wanna be really clear on that. It [00:03:30] is not a law. And we used to have this group of [00:03:35] people that made laws, that made things change for a long time
[00:03:39] Nathan: [00:03:40] Yeah
[00:03:40] Andrew: and not just a short time.
[00:03:42] Andrew: I just wanna re- remind people that we [00:03:45] could have that again, and that's the
[00:03:47] Nathan: day.
[00:03:48] Andrew: method for [00:03:50] changing things in America is laws.
[00:03:52] Nathan: Yes. Yes.
[00:03:53] Andrew: Yeah. And so [00:03:55] there's been some drama with... It's a kinda tech story 'cause I guess MapQuest is [00:04:00] refusing to change it, so everybody's deleting Google and Apple Maps and going to MapQuest.
[00:04:04] Andrew: [00:04:05] Whatever. I, I don't th- I'm not offended by seeing it, but I I think it's stupid. [00:04:10] The, the thing I think that's interesting there is because Google and Apple pull [00:04:15] out of the USGS database,
[00:04:18] Andrew: the USGS is an office in the [00:04:20] executive branch of the United States government,
[00:04:22] Andrew: therefore everything is now [00:04:25] renamed
[00:04:25] Nathan: Wow.
[00:04:26] Andrew: So this is the exploitive power that this president is using [00:04:30] to do, again, something I think is frankly stupid. I don't think America's [00:04:35] stronger or better because we changed the name on a map.
[00:04:38] Andrew: And again, it's more inflammatory [00:04:40] to Canada. Trade is a whole thing. We could, I could have an economist on and we can [00:04:45] talk about how crazy the trade
[00:04:46] Andrew: stuff is
[00:04:46] Nathan: be fun. That would be fun actually. I'd be very interested in that,
[00:04:49] Andrew: A [00:04:50] TL...
[00:04:50] Nathan: messed up everything is.
[00:04:51] Andrew: Yeah, TLDR folks, it's not a zero-sum game. [00:04:55] It's not a dollar to dollar at all. It, that, that's not how [00:05:00] trade is measured successfully or not.
[00:05:01] Nathan: Right
[00:05:02] Andrew: But the... Yeah, [00:05:05] so the, the divisiveness I think is just stupid. It doesn't help us. [00:05:10] And I think it goes to show, like
[00:05:13] Andrew: This is to me just a p- [00:05:15] the next very clear example of how the [00:05:20] executive branch just trying to pretend like they're more important or doing more than they are. 'Cause [00:05:25] again, if you're the CEO of a company and you tell everybody in the company that we're [00:05:30] gonna rename Friday Friesday, and if they don't call it Friesday, [00:05:35] you g- you're fired, then you're gonna call it Friesday and you're gonna roll your eyes and be like, "Okay, he's in [00:05:40] charge," or, "She's in charge, and that's what we do now."
[00:05:42] Andrew: It, it's a performative [00:05:45] thing, and I'm just sick of it. So I don't really... I don't wanna talk about politics, but I [00:05:50] just... There are so many, like, actual problems that the American public [00:05:55] is, is facing every day, and this helps [00:06:00] nobody. If anything, it probably just makes everything more expensive because everyone's got to reprint maps [00:06:05] and there's confusion, and people are upset or happy for...
[00:06:09] Andrew: It [00:06:10] just, it like there's n- it's not a n- it, it doesn't add anything
[00:06:13] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:06:14] Andrew: The [00:06:15] performance of getting some sort of a victory. But it's not even like a victory because it's like it's [00:06:20] people just doing what they're told.
[00:06:21] Nathan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, I, there, there are many [00:06:25] many paths you can go down and, and I hope we don't reprint maps, but y- [00:06:30] you mentioned something I would've thought is, is worth highlighting. This idea of the zero-sum game where [00:06:35] it's
[00:06:35] Nathan: Someone's gotta win, and if you have that mentality and you're [00:06:40] patriotic in, in some sense, it's always "Oh, America's gotta win," right?
[00:06:42] Nathan: I think that, that mentality is the dangerous [00:06:45] one, where you start looking at negotiations or partnerships in [00:06:50] a what do I get out of it point and, and that's rarely ever a, a good way [00:06:55] to
[00:06:55] Andrew: And just think about this in your day-to-day life, in your work life. If you go into a meeting and refuse to do [00:07:00] anything until you get your way, you probably don't have a job, right? Nobody [00:07:05] likes you even if you do win. Everybody hates you. And not that you need to be liked by everyone in the [00:07:10] world or everyone that you're around, but it's like you don't wanna be around people you don't like, [00:07:15] right?
[00:07:15] Andrew: So why would, It, it... And the zero-sum thing, like America's built their [00:07:20] reputation on "Yeah, we're gonna get our way," but like we doesn't, doesn't have to be [00:07:25] just us.
[00:07:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm
[00:07:26] Andrew: Um, and we've... The, this, the staunch [00:07:30] departure from that is really troubling to me, and like nobody I think who voted for Trump [00:07:35] probably was thinking about international affairs and, and zero-sum [00:07:40] games and win-wins, and that's what's happening.
[00:07:42] Andrew: And I, I think if people don't... Again, [00:07:45] like I need to pay for gas, I need to pay for food. I get that. But the [00:07:50] part of the reason why this stuff's as cheap as it is or as expensive as it [00:07:55] is, is because of trade,
[00:07:57] Andrew: right?
[00:07:58] Andrew: And so the international stuff does [00:08:00] matter to you. And what I'm afraid of is that so many people are just so focused on [00:08:05] their day-to-day because the economy sucks for most people, people aren't gonna put it [00:08:10] together
[00:08:10] Nathan: Yeah, yeah
[00:08:12] Andrew: but yeah, I don't know.
[00:08:13] Andrew: Anyways, it, it's just [00:08:15] not a productive way to do anything, and the podcast is about exploring [00:08:20] creativity and looking at different approaches to stuff, and this is the antithesis of [00:08:25] everything that we talk about, right? So that's maybe why I'm so bothered by it, 'cause it's literally the [00:08:30] opposite way of that you're not gonna, be creative.
[00:08:33] Andrew: You're not gonna be innovative by running [00:08:35] into a room and screaming at people and demanding crazy shit from them or changing the names of [00:08:40] the conference room
[00:08:41] Nathan: Right.
[00:08:42] Andrew: like it, right?
[00:08:43] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah
[00:08:43] Andrew: [00:08:45] matter. I guess on that, on that little side
[00:08:47] Andrew: quest...
[00:08:48] Nathan: of economics,
[00:08:49] Andrew: [00:08:50] Yeah.
[00:08:50] Nathan: been up to, Andrew?
[00:08:51] Andrew: What have I been up to? I've been really busy.
[00:08:53] Andrew: But I can give [00:08:55] a I give a DigiCity update. There's been a lot of advancement here. [00:09:00] Last time... My
[00:09:02] Nathan: Yeah, while you, while, yeah,
[00:09:03] Nathan: while, while you pull that up. So you've been [00:09:05] showing off progress on DigiCity, which is a, a game that you're building that, eh, [00:09:10] I don't, I don't know if I wanna use the right, the, the, the specific terms here, but, but
[00:09:14] Andrew: Yeah
[00:09:14] Nathan: [00:09:15] you get to grow a city, and you put things down, and you
[00:09:18] Andrew: Yeah, it's a,
[00:09:18] Andrew: it's, it's a city [00:09:20] builder, so you start,
[00:09:21] Andrew: yeah,
[00:09:21] Andrew: you start from nothing, and, and [00:09:25] build up. And I guess maybe even just to really wrap through. So this is part [00:09:30] of a build in public series. There's a contest called [00:09:35] Shipathon that's g- or Shipaton that's going on right now through the end of the month.
[00:09:39] Andrew: So if you [00:09:40] started last month or start now, you can submit your app to the App Store. You have to do some revenue [00:09:45] stuff. All the stuff's up there. I've been doing this this, this game is a fun [00:09:50] side quest that I went on to, to build that and also build a city builder 'cause the [00:09:55] App Store does not have one as far as I can tell, and the couple that I were able to find were pretty bad.
[00:09:59] Andrew: So [00:10:00] there's two modes. There's open build, which is just a map, and you can build, and there's no [00:10:05] rules other than physics and gameplay. And you can just do whatever you want. The [00:10:10] scenarios bring you through, 1900 to [00:10:15] 2010 and then beyond in different eras. And you get... You start [00:10:20] with a, a anchor building, so a port, university, or medical center.
[00:10:24] Andrew: Those will [00:10:25] probably expand in the future, but the idea is that, that that's your kind of primary industry or that's how your town [00:10:30] was founded. We talked about this a little bit last time where most towns were founded because of a [00:10:35] thing. I'm not interested in mining but that would be the other big one.
[00:10:39] Andrew: And [00:10:40] so new this week, Is there's a shit, there's a lot of stuff that's [00:10:45] new. I re- redid the menu. There's different options now, so within the road there's an, [00:10:50] a widened road option. So as you grow and your population expands, you go from [00:10:55] a single road to kind of a highway idea.
[00:10:58] Andrew: With elevated rail lines now, [00:11:00] so you can traverse mountains and shit. And then, trees. We have [00:11:05] trees now. Whoops. Build some road there in the middle. So there's trees. You can kinda see [00:11:10] there's different... The art variations are gonna get a big [00:11:15] revamp, once the Ship It Ton is done. I have a September 30th deadline to build as much of the base game as [00:11:20] I can, and then it'll look a, a lot better.
[00:11:22] Andrew: There's new, in this version, [00:11:25] which is up on TestFlight, you can get the link in the description, there's air [00:11:30] pollution, water pollution, and sound pollution are [00:11:35] kinda like the main anti-forces against your city now. So people don't wanna live by the [00:11:40] rail. People wanna breathe clean air. They wanna drink clean water.
[00:11:44] Andrew: And then [00:11:45] as you go through the different eras, you'll create pollution in the [00:11:50] 1900s, and then in the 1960s you're gonna figure out that this is really hurting your city. So [00:11:55] it's follows your traditional industrialization arc. But as [00:12:00] you're building throughout time as new stuff develops, new industries, that kind of [00:12:05] stuff, like it, it'll either increase or decrease different types of pollution that you have to kinda deal [00:12:10] with.
[00:12:10] Andrew: There's some remittance, so like for example, trees will help [00:12:15] with air pollution. S- roads [00:12:20] streetcar, rail all have kinda different modifiers for sound pollution. [00:12:25] Water pollution is mostly industrially based now, but trying to work through [00:12:30] what exactly that looks like, but it's kinda new in this.
[00:12:32] Andrew: Let me load
[00:12:34] Nathan: Yeah. Do you [00:12:35] mind talking a little bit about the, the design process? Why you chose to add something like the [00:12:40] pollution vectors? Obviously some of it's trying to replicate what it's like really [00:12:45] when you're considering a city, but in terms of
[00:12:47] Andrew: I
[00:12:48] Nathan: why did you include stuff like that?[00:12:50]
[00:12:50] Andrew: We have camera controls now, which is so nice.
[00:12:53] Andrew: I'm just really [00:12:55] happy. I'm really happy with these. So you can spin around your city. I still can't zoom on the simulator. I can't [00:13:00] figure it out, but you can zoom in the game and, terrain is now a thing too, so you can kinda [00:13:05] see it in the, the 8-bit graphics, but you can level terrains and stuff now and make [00:13:10] things so some things have to have flat terrain, some things can adapt.
[00:13:14] Andrew: There's a [00:13:15] whole bunch of power and stuff come into different building types coming [00:13:20] up. Other than that, I've tried, trying to, So you can kinda see here, [00:13:25] I, I, I'll answer your question, but I wanna kinda talk through the f- the continuum. So [00:13:30] the game is totally free to play in open build. The eras, [00:13:35] which you're looking at now, are gonna be for sale for two bucks a piece.
[00:13:39] Andrew: There's an [00:13:40] unlock everything, so you'll just unlock everything that's currently built, and then as [00:13:45] new stuff develops, it's like a pay once, own forever kind of model. You'll just get [00:13:50] all the new content. You can also just buy saving for $9.99, so if you wanna save your [00:13:55] city progress. Trying to play with the business models a little bit.
[00:13:58] Andrew: I hate [00:14:00] trapware, I hate adware, I hate all this attention monetization. [00:14:05] The, the thoughts about why this way, a lot of parents just probably [00:14:10] want an easy to use game that the kids can learn and have some fun in. There you go. You [00:14:15] got open build mode. You can build as much as you want.
[00:14:17] Andrew: If you want it to save, you can pay for it. If you don't [00:14:20] want, you just wanna, they can just start over. Sorry, kids, that's how it works. That's you [00:14:25] can do that. The app will maintain its [00:14:30] state like, all of the stuff you've built in the app will maintain, so as long as [00:14:35] Apple's iOS or iPad OS doesn't clear the memory on you in [00:14:40] the background, so you can switch back and forth.
[00:14:42] Andrew: You may or may not lose your city. It's a little bit of Russian [00:14:45] roulette. If you wanna be able to save, you can hit the save. iCloud saves are now in there too, so you can save in the cloud or [00:14:50] save on your compu- on the, the device. And then again, unlock everything. [00:14:55] And then there's also some kind of tool tips I'm trying to build so the, the arrows make [00:15:00] sense.
[00:15:00] Andrew: So why did I do, The way this... So a lot of the city [00:15:05] builders are either like ultra-realistic, and it's like we've talked about, it's like the, the [00:15:10] angle of the water pipe has to be correct. Like I cannot be bothered to care about that. [00:15:15] I really like the city builders. Like I, I always kinda liked, Like SimCity.
[00:15:19] Andrew: I, [00:15:20] I didn't love like it got into much more like management of the cities. Like the city [00:15:25] builders either go to like ultra-realism or it's more like economic [00:15:30] kinda based. And I think those are interesting components, and like there's [00:15:35] some economics in the game, and like I'm trying to work through how deep I wanna go to that.
[00:15:39] Andrew: [00:15:40] But I'm more interested in making it about, the stuff that you don't see [00:15:45] in city builders. So like sound pollution is something I'm not aware of and I'm not a [00:15:50] city builder connoisseur, so I,
[00:15:52] Andrew: you know, could be out there. But for [00:15:55] most, most of the time like that isn't a consideration, and anyone who's ever lived in like a big city [00:16:00] and lives next to a freeway or like you're in a...
[00:16:03] Andrew: You're acutely aware of [00:16:05] like the train is loud as fuck, but it's great for mass transit. But there's like a [00:16:10] negative. Same with a busy highway going through a city or people don't like [00:16:15] that. So deal with some of those issues, make it a little bit more [00:16:20] realistic without being so detail realistic, like the water pitch, that kinda [00:16:25] stuff.
[00:16:25] Andrew: I'm kinda hoping it's a little educational for folks, so they start to think [00:16:30] about like city design in a more modern sense. And so a lot of these concepts are really well-known in like [00:16:35] the city, like actual city building, city planning
[00:16:38] Nathan: Right
[00:16:39] Andrew: Spheres. [00:16:40] And so once we hit like 2010, kind of the modern era we were [00:16:45] talking about this before we started, but like I wanna start to talk or t- or to think through how you go [00:16:50] about upgrading the city.
[00:16:51] Andrew: And so like the coal power... Like if you can build a solar power plant in the '70s, which [00:16:55] is historically accurate, can you upgrade it
[00:16:58] Andrew: When there's new [00:17:00] photovoltaics? Is, does that cost? Like they degrade over time, like you should lose [00:17:05] power, and so try to build so people can kinda think through.
[00:17:07] Andrew: It's like yeah, the coal power plant's really cheap and [00:17:10] coal is plentiful, but like everybody hates living by a coal power plant, and you can't [00:17:15] really grow your city. So it's how do you how do you work through those kinda things? So it's almost maybe [00:17:20] more of a social game in that regard, like a social city builder in [00:17:25] terms of the core driving mechanics.
[00:17:27] Andrew: It's... And I don't want it to make it just [00:17:30] build the whole map and then you're done kinda thing
[00:17:32] Nathan: Oh, oh, oh, okay. I see, I see what
[00:17:34] Andrew: [00:17:35] Yeah. So you can complete this scenario... Right now it runs about, I think about 30 [00:17:40] minutes in Era. Working on dialing that in through the beta, 'cause it, it-- the, [00:17:45] the core design process right now is get the thing functional [00:17:50] and the base stuff there, so it's kinda fun.
[00:17:52] Andrew: It started out with just roads and [00:17:55] buildings. It's like that. I was like, "That's, this is fun. I don't wanna play more than two minutes of [00:18:00] this." and so give you some variety, give you different challenges. Fire is also now a thing Stuff will start on [00:18:05] fire and, potentially damage stuff, and you'll have to kinda think through [00:18:10] risky industries and how to, do that.
[00:18:12] Andrew: And I kinda wanna build different economic [00:18:15] paths. Based on your, starting building, so it's university, [00:18:20] hospital, or port
[00:18:22] Andrew: What are the kinda dangers associated with [00:18:25] that? So if you have a big port fire, what happens? Your distance to get to [00:18:30] work is h- is more because nobody wants to live by the port, but you work at the [00:18:35] port.
[00:18:35] Andrew: Try to figure out kinda those things. And I've had some ideas on, using the [00:18:40] Apple Game ecosystem. I forget what they call it. I think it's just Games. But there's [00:18:45] social components there. You can compete with friends and stuff. I don't think anyone ever does any of that, or maybe they do.
[00:18:49] Andrew: [00:18:50] I don't know.
[00:18:50] Nathan: Let us know if you do. I'd be, I'd be
[00:18:52] Andrew: yeah. Yeah, 'cause I think it'd be [00:18:55] kinda fun to score it on different dimensions, so kinda like [00:19:00] Civilization does. You can get a, a conquest victory, you can get a social influence [00:19:05] victory. There's all sorts of different ways to win.
[00:19:08] Andrew: And I don't know that you necessarily win [00:19:10] the game per se, but I wanna, I wanna have it so that you can [00:19:15] score differently in different elements and choose how you want to be [00:19:20] successful
[00:19:20] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool.
[00:19:22] Nathan: I I, really like the
[00:19:23] Andrew: your friends.
[00:19:23] Andrew: Be like, "I have the cleanest [00:19:25] air city," with the most population or something. I don't I,
[00:19:28] Nathan: Yeah, there are a few
[00:19:29] Nathan: different ideas
[00:19:29] Andrew: [00:19:30] prescriptive in games, right? It's... And those
[00:19:31] Nathan: Right
[00:19:32] Andrew: people mad. But I like the kind of more [00:19:35] open world, free form, figure out your fun
[00:19:39] Nathan: Yeah. [00:19:40] I'm gonna try to tie it back to some stuff we were talking about earlier. So if you, you could maybe [00:19:45] try a collaborative social game thing, right? So if, if you have one, if one of your [00:19:50] friends is a port city and yours is a hospital city,
[00:19:54] Nathan: maybe there's [00:19:55] some trading, trading that happens between your friend's
[00:19:57] Nathan: city and your city. So y- it's, [00:20:00] it's a
[00:20:00] Andrew: I like that. Yeah
[00:20:02] Nathan: out of it, right? So rather than just leaderboards, [00:20:05] it's how can you build a good ecosystem amongst your friends
[00:20:08] Andrew: Yeah
[00:20:08] Nathan: that you [00:20:10] have. But
[00:20:10] Andrew: I, I really, I
[00:20:11] Andrew: don't know, yeah, I don't know if the, the, the Apple GameKit or [00:20:15] whatever supports that, but
[00:20:16] Nathan: you do that?
[00:20:17] Andrew: that's f- I would think so, right? You, and when you make a [00:20:20] g- connection to another city or something, then you could like do with your friend, and [00:20:25] then you could do trade. That, that's
[00:20:27] Nathan: Yes, exactly.
[00:20:28] Andrew: is
[00:20:29] Andrew: [00:20:30] Yeah.
[00:20:30] Andrew: But yeah, industry is like, there's-- it's very, very basic. For anyone who's ever played even like [00:20:35] SimCity, this is really, really basic. But like this is from scratch.
[00:20:39] Nathan: Yeah[00:20:40]
[00:20:40] Andrew: I literally started with nothing. I like opened a text editor and with blank [00:20:45] screen. Which
[00:20:46] Nathan: You're right. And then you sat there and you start,
[00:20:49] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:20:49] Nathan: the [00:20:50] montage.
[00:20:50] Nathan: now," and
[00:20:54] Andrew: wants to [00:20:55] watch me code."
[00:20:56] Nathan: you just start typing it all.
[00:20:56] Andrew: but it having game engines and stuff can [00:21:00] really help, and like that's not the approach I took. I'm finding [00:21:05] that, it's interesting 'cause it's like I really don't like making games. I [00:21:10]
[00:21:10] Nathan: Yeah, games are
[00:21:10] Nathan: not,
[00:21:11] Andrew: this.
[00:21:12] Nathan: Ga- games are an interesting topic, I, I do think
[00:21:14] Nathan: [00:21:15] Like be- being, being a podcast that talks about science, technology, and art, games [00:21:20] can actually be like all three of those, right? Like a good combination of, of all of them [00:21:25] together.
[00:21:26] Andrew: Yeah
[00:21:26] Nathan: difficult to build. They're, they're interesting.
[00:21:29] Nathan: They're, they're very, [00:21:30] very interesting for, for many different reasons. But it, it's like building your own world, right? So you can set up [00:21:35] rules that apply in that, in that space, not outside it. And but they're hard to, they're hard [00:21:40] to do
[00:21:40] Andrew: Yeah. So it's like looking at the different elements of [00:21:45] like what are the rules of the game, right? So right now it's kinda open build. You have to kinda have [00:21:50] some sort of a balance with residential, commercial, and, and industrial. [00:21:55] The, and there's a little, I didn't show it too much on screen, but there's a little, how [00:22:00] are you doing like graph
[00:22:02] Andrew: that t-
[00:22:03] Andrew: tells you like...
[00:22:04] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:22:04] Nathan: like your, [00:22:05] your citi- citizen happiness score or
[00:22:06] Nathan: whatever you're
[00:22:07] Andrew: So the, the idea is that you play the era and then [00:22:10] you win it, and then you keep going, and there's like victory crit- cr- or cr- [00:22:15] victory condition. But longer term, like we were just talking [00:22:20] about, I'm trying to think through like the different ways to have more fun or have challenge as [00:22:25] you're still building.
[00:22:26] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:22:27] Nathan: Like I've seen, I've seen games. where it's
[00:22:29] Nathan: [00:22:30] like I think, I think it could be fun. I think part
[00:22:32] Andrew: No.
[00:22:33] Nathan: I'm just gonna... There's an art [00:22:35] to game design and game balance, right?
[00:22:37] Nathan: That was part of the reason why I asked why you chose to [00:22:40] include something like pollution levels, right? So as you're
[00:22:43] Nathan: balancing or adding game [00:22:45] mechanics, you have to think about it from like a both design and then like consumer perspective.[00:22:50]
[00:22:50] Nathan: Is this fun to introduce or what do I want to actually...
[00:22:53] Nathan: Why am I introducing [00:22:55] this, right?
[00:22:55] Nathan: Very much like a product manager approach. Yeah, Good
[00:22:58] Andrew: I, I don't know. I don't, I [00:23:00] don't... There is no why. No.
[00:23:02] Nathan: It's too easy, right? Y- there's a... For, for a [00:23:05] lot of games, you typically want a, a difficulty threshold where you don't want the game to be so easy depending on what [00:23:10] audience you're targeting, so you introduce some mechanics to make it a little more difficult for the people that you [00:23:15] hope to have fun playing it.
[00:23:16] Nathan: And
[00:23:16] Nathan: for a lot of people, difficulty is an element of how much fun they're [00:23:20] having.
[00:23:20] Nathan: So having r- like random events in mini-games can feel very [00:23:25] unfair because it seems random and there's no, there's no viable reason for a punishment if it seems [00:23:30] it was, was random, right? So lots of people don't like random events for, for that kind of reason.
[00:23:34] Nathan: [00:23:35] Um
[00:23:35] Andrew: switch back. I already kinda deconstructed this, so like focus on [00:23:40] the
[00:23:40] Nathan: yeah
[00:23:40] Nathan: I as you're pulling it up, one of the things that you mentioned I thought was really interesting, and I would encourage people to [00:23:45] think more about, is like the, basically the, the, the threshold between [00:23:50] eras, right? So you were talking about if you had built a plant, a solar plant in the '70s, and then the [00:23:55] modern age comes, how do you go about bringing that up to [00:24:00] modernization?
[00:24:00] Nathan: Do you tear the whole thing down, or do you start slowly incrementing it, or what do you do to
[00:24:04] Nathan: [00:24:05] approach it? And this is the stuff that we've talked about when it comes to innovation. [00:24:10] When you have something totally new, what do you do about it? This is very [00:24:15] relevant to me when I'm talking about energy infrastructure.
[00:24:17] Nathan: When you have
[00:24:18] Andrew: Yeah
[00:24:19] Nathan: [00:24:20] system of wires, how do you go about replacing it when people are using it? So I think that's a very [00:24:25] interesting element of the game that I hope people start thinking about if they're playing it, and you go from that [00:24:30] phase one to phase two or era one to era two.
[00:24:32] Andrew: Yeah
[00:24:33] Nathan: do you, how do you got... How do you [00:24:35] start doing these types of things without totally breaking everything down? Or it look like if [00:24:40] you actually do demolish everything and then rebuild? Do you end up
[00:24:43] Andrew: Ex- exact. Yeah, [00:24:45] and it, it's more I think for me too, it, it... And like the c- the city, I just built a really [00:24:50] quick one before we streamed. So there's like this is the pollution overlay, so you can [00:24:55] kinda see like the industrial and the power generation. The artwork's gonna get a [00:25:00] revamp too. I just needed stuff.
[00:25:01] Andrew: These are all original assets. These, this to just kinda illustrate what's going [00:25:05] on. But like this is what I was talking about with the checkpoint or the kinda checklist of how to, how to [00:25:10] win kinda thing. And so I wanted to keep some of that in there of competing [00:25:15] against like a set of criteria, 'cause I think a lot of people, like you were saying, like [00:25:20] that's fun for them.
[00:25:21] Andrew: But I also wanted to make it too so you could just build [00:25:25] stuff
[00:25:25] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:25:26] Andrew: Like literally, right? And I think like the, the kind of the [00:25:30] approach that I... And that's what the open build is really for, and also why it's free, because I think if you don't have [00:25:35] 10 bucks or don't wanna pay 10 bucks, I don't really care.
[00:25:36] Andrew: You just be able to play have some fun or... But it, I, [00:25:40] I, I thought about it almost as like adult coloring is like a big thing with folks, some [00:25:45] folks, and it's more just therapeutic. And like that's what I remember, [00:25:50] being frustrated with and when I was younger playing like SimCity and stuff was like I [00:25:55] wanted to build some cool shit, but there was no like great way to do it.
[00:25:57] Andrew: You had to play
[00:25:59] Andrew: the linear [00:26:00] curve. Like fine, but I think it's like being [00:26:05] able to remove those constraints and then play around with the idea of like I'm gonna [00:26:10] build a suburb and try to push people in, and how does that work, and get [00:26:15] out of that like linear city design as well, if that makes sense, and, and [00:26:20] not have that as a constraint if you don't want it.
[00:26:22] Andrew: Like again, that's what kind of like open build is for.
[00:26:24] Nathan: [00:26:25] Okay.
[00:26:25] Andrew: It's like what if you wanted to start with the city of the future that's like all nuclear powered or [00:26:30] something? I don't know. Why not? See what happens. Like what kind of challenges are presented by [00:26:35] you have no air pollution you still have to have industry to build shit, and you still [00:26:40] gotta so I don't know. I don't know where it's gonna go. I, I, I love the idea though of f- the friend [00:26:45] thing and
[00:26:45] Nathan: yeah
[00:26:46] Andrew: like trade and like specialize. Like I th- think [00:26:50] where I wanna take the industry is more mature and really start working through [00:26:55] the themes of like making shit versus like importing shit.
[00:26:59] Nathan: [00:27:00] Yeah
[00:27:00] Andrew: And 'cause that that really changes how your economy works. It's yeah, there's no pollution here, it's great, [00:27:05] but you have to pay more and more for stuff because you import it all, and now your people are pissed [00:27:10] 'cause everything's really expensive, and your city doesn't grow as fast 'cause it's really hard to live there, right?[00:27:15]
[00:27:15] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:27:16] Andrew: to major cities, right?
[00:27:17] Andrew: Like
[00:27:18] Nathan: yeah. Welcome to the [00:27:20] real world. Yeah,
[00:27:20] Nathan: yeah, I-
[00:27:21] Andrew: folks have, have ideas or, or things you wanna see that [00:27:25] are either in a traditional city builder or not, feel free to jump in the comments or in the [00:27:30] Discord. I wish it was easier to do a build your own adventure. [00:27:35] And like maybe what I'll do is once the rules are more solidified for how the game is [00:27:40] working, allow you to choose.
[00:27:42] Andrew: Like I wanna deal with air pollution
[00:27:44] Nathan: Yeah, [00:27:45] yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there, there are modes where you can toggle features
[00:27:48] Andrew: Yeah
[00:27:48] Nathan: or, yeah, sandbox [00:27:50] mode. Ultimately, you can really choose. Yeah, that also
[00:27:52] Nathan: enables like certain scenarios [00:27:55] where
[00:27:56] Nathan: Maybe not realistic, but make it challenging to, to
[00:27:59] Andrew: [00:28:00] Yeah.
[00:28:00] Andrew: yeah.
[00:28:00] Andrew: and then maybe the... I don't know if I wanna go super educational with [00:28:05] it, but like I could, I, I can definitely see a like learning outcomes. [00:28:10] Like I wanna figure out like how to build the best city without noise pollution or something,
[00:28:14] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah[00:28:15]
[00:28:15] Andrew: and kinda make it 'cause again, like I never wanted to design a game and I'm like
[00:28:19] Andrew: kind [00:28:20] of, I'm kind of regretting it.
[00:28:22] Nathan: I have so many ideas for games that I'm, I'm just gonna dump [00:28:25] on you and see what you end up taking. But
[00:28:27] Andrew: Yeah, no, I'm ki-
[00:28:28] Nathan: are fun to, to create. They're, [00:28:30] they're
[00:28:30] Andrew: I don't. I don't think so at all. Like we were talking about it last
[00:28:33] Nathan: about.
[00:28:33] Andrew: but like the, the amount of [00:28:35] bugs that are just like... Like there's always bugs in software, but it's like such [00:28:40] different kind of bugs, and it's kinda subjective too, 'cause it's like there's all the rules and [00:28:45] the gameplay and it's like I want it to be fun and it...
[00:28:47] Andrew: And like most, like you were saying, like you'd, you'd [00:28:50] have kind of rules or conditions or something like, something you're battling against and to balance [00:28:55] in quote, and I'm not doing it that way. Like maybe I should be, but I'm not. And I'm adding [00:29:00] in different components. And maybe that's just because it's early days.[00:29:05]
[00:29:05] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Andrew: In six months if I'm still building this, then I w- I'll still be building it to [00:29:10] some extent, but it's like I, I find that I have way more fun playing the game than I do [00:29:15] building it
[00:29:15] Nathan: And that's the good side to be on. I think a lot of people get stuck in the building the game and then they never [00:29:20] finish it and they
[00:29:20] Andrew: Yeah, and
[00:29:21] Andrew: like, and I, again, I like, I kinda wanna replicate that [00:29:25] idea of like adult coloring or whatever, where it's like, it's a little [00:29:30] challenging, but the, the point of the thing is to not be [00:29:35] challenged,
[00:29:35] Andrew: Right?
[00:29:35] Andrew: And, and, and work different modalities of your mind. So it's like I do a [00:29:40] lot of strategy and a lot of crisis management and shit all day long. [00:29:45] And so I don't necessarily wanna do that at home, but having those kind of [00:29:50] goal-oriented or, or de-crisis moments of "Okay, I gotta make sure the city doesn't burn down.
[00:29:54] Andrew: [00:29:55] What do I gotta do?" or how would I wanna mitigate that risk in, [00:30:00] in more of an aesthetic way, that, those kind of things. So I don't know. There's a lot of different ability there [00:30:05] that I'm excited to play with, so we'll see
[00:30:08] Andrew: how it evolves over time. Yeah.
[00:30:09] Nathan: I [00:30:10] think it depends on how long you wanna keep building it.
[00:30:12] Andrew: But
[00:30:12] Nathan: you could sit there and build it forever.
[00:30:14] Andrew: I don't know if you [00:30:15] can do mods and stuff on iOS, which is I don't know, it's probably hard to like...
[00:30:19] Nathan: Yeah, [00:30:20] I don't think you can
[00:30:20] Andrew: love to be able to let people do their own artwork or like customize it and shit. And [00:30:25] maybe, I don't know, maybe I'll figure that out too,
[00:30:26] Andrew: like...
[00:30:27] Nathan: go to Steam.
[00:30:28] Andrew: No. No, I have [00:30:30] too
[00:30:30] Andrew: many
[00:30:30] Nathan: trade, trade Apple for Steam. Apple Store versus Steam.
[00:30:34] Andrew: [00:30:35] I've, I've
[00:30:35] Nathan: Choose, choose your poison
[00:30:37] Andrew: I've sworn off the App Store more times now than I can count. [00:30:40] I don't, I definitely don't need to collect anything else, but yeah. we did a po- we did a [00:30:45] politics rant and a city builder demo. Any- anything
[00:30:47] Nathan: Yeah. They're, they're connected. I think, [00:30:50] I think that's somewhat connected, right?
[00:30:52] Andrew: I mean, I went to Canada. I love [00:30:55] Canada. And I'll say people there were super chill. It didn't come up. It... The west [00:31:00] coast of Canada, especially going to Vancouver, it's a big city. We-- There-- I don't know if people know [00:31:05] this maybe internationally, but the west coast of North America is, it's, it's a [00:31:10] culture in its own,
[00:31:11] Nathan: i, yeah. Okay. Should I ask you to [00:31:15] elaborate?
[00:31:15] Andrew: I don't know. I've lived in all three states, right? Ca- California, Oregon, [00:31:20] and Washington.
[00:31:21] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. Yeah
[00:31:22] Andrew: And all f- the big [00:31:25] cities on the Western United States are all pretty... I don't call them similar, [00:31:30] but, they're all, compared to each other, not super [00:31:35] different. The histories are also pretty similar, like a lot of shipping, a lot of boom and bust [00:31:40] cycle.
[00:31:41] Andrew: All pretty new, compared to even the East Coast of [00:31:45] the United
[00:31:45] Andrew: States, 'cause that was
[00:31:46] Andrew: First, Right, So it's... Whereas Europe [00:31:50] there's cities that are 10,000 years old down the road from a city that's 200 years old down the [00:31:55] road from a city that was completely rebuilt after World War II, right?
[00:31:58] Andrew: It's like, it's a totally [00:32:00] different landscape, or can be. And then just the culture and the [00:32:05] attitude, and,
[00:32:05] Nathan: Makes sense. I can see
[00:32:06] Andrew: It's, yeah, it's much more similar than it is [00:32:10] different. Because I think of somewhere like Miami and, New York City.
[00:32:14] Nathan: Yeah.[00:32:15]
[00:32:15] Andrew: opposed. Big cities.
[00:32:17] Andrew: very, very, very very different.
[00:32:18] Andrew: Atlanta, Georgia, [00:32:20] super different. Not bad, it's just different, right? And it's like, whereas [00:32:25] San Francisco versus Portland versus Seattle yeah, they're different and [00:32:30] some people probably don't think they're different at all, but they're different. But they're, they're much closer together in my [00:32:35] mind than Miami and New York or Miami and Atlanta,
[00:32:39] Nathan: That makes sense. [00:32:40] Yes. Yeah. Yeah
[00:32:41] Andrew: And I don't know, maybe I'm, everybody thinks I'm stupid and crazy too, I don't know. But [00:32:45] I, I think there's
[00:32:45] Nathan: Let us know in the comments.
[00:32:47] Andrew: Yeah, there's definitely a West Coast culture. There's [00:32:50] definitely... We even talk all similar. We have [00:32:55] similar vernaculars. Even in Canada, it's really...
[00:32:57] Andrew: It's weird to go to Vancouver and,
[00:32:59] Andrew: like, [00:33:00] you hear a little bit of the accent, but you really don't at the same time. And [00:33:05] yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, it's fine. I like it. I like Vancouver. I like Canada[00:33:10]
[00:33:10] Nathan: Okay. I've, I've actually never been to Canada.
[00:33:13] Andrew: Do [00:33:15] it
[00:33:15] Nathan: Yeah, I've been to San Francisco and,
[00:33:17] Andrew: Yeah
[00:33:17] Nathan: Portland, I think once. [00:33:20] Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:20] Andrew: I think
[00:33:21] Nathan: ago. Yeah, a long, long ago. It was a, it was a... I'm trying to remember. It was [00:33:25] a conference. I don't re- an open
[00:33:26] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:33:27] Nathan: It was...
[00:33:27] Andrew: Oh yeah, there's a few of those in
[00:33:29] Andrew: town.
[00:33:29] Nathan: Yeah, [00:33:30] yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:33:30] Andrew: But yeah, I don't know. I, I, I, yeah, a- and I feel [00:33:35] like West Coast too, it's like we all resonate with the [00:33:40] more similar than different, that's not as like the Northeast of [00:33:45] even the US is very different than the East Coast, which is different than the Southeast, which is...
[00:33:49] Andrew: And it's [00:33:50] not. It's all America, and it, it's... But I would say like Florida and [00:33:55] New York states are very, very, very different, whereas like California, Washington, [00:34:00] Oregon, the big cities are very similar. I would say the rural areas are, are [00:34:05] different in different cultures, but it's like similar enough too.
[00:34:08] Andrew: It's a lot of agriculture. [00:34:10] It's a lot of cattle ranching.
[00:34:12] Andrew: People don't know that about California, but no, it's a [00:34:15] lot of agriculture. It's a lot... And it's just like to Nebraska, except [00:34:20] for it's California, right? It's like people are
[00:34:23] Nathan: Yeah
[00:34:23] Andrew: same stuff. They have a lot of the same [00:34:25] views.
[00:34:25] Andrew: It just, there happens to be more mountains and like gas is more expensive.
[00:34:29] Nathan: That [00:34:30] might, that might be a big one. That, that's a turn-off for a lot of people, I think.
[00:34:32] Andrew: Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. [00:34:35] But, yeah, I don't know. So I don't... And I'm actually headed to Toronto in [00:34:40] a week or so too, maybe. I
[00:34:42] Andrew: don't know.
[00:34:43] Nathan: yeah, the other side.
[00:34:43] Nathan: Okay, cool. Cool
[00:34:44] Andrew: So that's [00:34:45] more kind of central, south central Canada. I've never been, so I'm in- really interested to see how [00:34:50] that is.
[00:34:51] Nathan: Thanks
[00:34:51] Andrew: I've heard nothing but great things, so I'm [00:34:55] excited.
[00:34:55] Nathan: Good, good.
[00:34:56] Nathan: Yeah, y-yeah. All right, cool. Nice.
[00:34:59] Andrew: So Andrew's [00:35:00] travels to Canada
[00:35:01] Nathan: Yeah. No, that's a few weeks, so we'll hear, we'll hear a report and [00:35:05] see how, how
[00:35:05] Nathan: well it holds up.
[00:35:06] Andrew: I think it's next week. So next week we won't have a live stream [00:35:10] probably.
[00:35:11] Nathan: Okay,
[00:35:11] Andrew: I didn't tell you that either, but I
[00:35:13] Andrew: just remembered that I'm not gonna [00:35:15] be
[00:35:15] Andrew: here and we'll take a, take a week off.
[00:35:16] Nathan: We, kinda, just roll with it here,
[00:35:18] Andrew: Yeah
[00:35:19] Nathan: whatever, [00:35:20] whatever works.
[00:35:20] Andrew: We, we can't deny the people the live stream
[00:35:23] Nathan: Oh no.
[00:35:24] Andrew: [00:35:25] But, uh, yeah.
[00:35:25] Nathan: spot. May- maybe I can
[00:35:26] Andrew: Okay.
[00:35:27] Nathan: No, I'm joking. I
[00:35:28] Andrew: Good luck.
[00:35:29] Nathan: want to do [00:35:30] that.
[00:35:30] Andrew: Good luck.
[00:35:31] Nathan: All right.
[00:35:32] Nathan: Then maybe see you in two weeks. Yeah, no
[00:35:34] Andrew: Yeah. [00:35:35] I'll definitely be back in two weeks. Unless they abduct me or something and make me [00:35:40] eat maple syrup, which is also delicious.
[00:35:43] Nathan: you love it there so much that you decide to [00:35:45] never come back?
[00:35:46] Andrew: It's hard to immigrate to Canada as an American, just for the
[00:35:48] Andrew: record. It's [00:35:50] really hard. I get it. I get it. It's also not nearly as hard to work [00:35:55] there. You know what I...
[00:35:56] Nathan: Yes. I, I think people
[00:35:58] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:35:58] Nathan: and they work remotely in
[00:35:59] Andrew: [00:36:00] Yeah, no, Canada and America and like even Mexico, like we have really... Like we [00:36:05] have very strange rules for working in the countries, but like [00:36:10] also weirdly a lot more permissible than a lot. Like you don't like the, the, [00:36:15] the bar is there, but it's lower than like trying to go to [00:36:20] Norway
[00:36:20] Nathan: You mean working
[00:36:22] Andrew: From
[00:36:22] Andrew: A work perspective?
[00:36:23] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:36:24] Nathan: Yeah.[00:36:25]
[00:36:25] Andrew: Yeah. It's, it's... I don't know, it's really weird. We should talk more about this kind of stuff, 'cause I don't think people [00:36:30] realize, like even if people think of Mexico and, and America or Canada, it's so different. I'm [00:36:35] like, it is, but it's not at the the North American culture in quotes is [00:36:40] like very different than like Europe.
[00:36:43] Andrew: We have a very, [00:36:45] very hard border between Mexico and America, yet there's like millions of people a day who [00:36:50] work at either country who like traverse, like just part of the job,
[00:36:54] Nathan: [00:36:55] hmm.
[00:36:55] Nathan: Oh, oh, I see
[00:36:56] Nathan: what you mean
[00:36:56] Andrew: you just drive basically, and you like flash a passport and you're [00:37:00] good, right? It's, in most, most countries.
[00:37:03] Andrew: But then you get into Eastern [00:37:05] Europe and stuff gets a little bit more, hard borders. Yeah
[00:37:09] Nathan: yeah, yeah, yeah. Difficult [00:37:10] to traverse
[00:37:10] Andrew: Yeah. So I don't know. It's, it's-- Yeah, people don't... I find a lot of [00:37:15] Americans don't travel outside of America enough and,
[00:37:18] Andrew: like, get to
[00:37:19] Nathan: I, I
[00:37:19] Andrew: [00:37:20] Canada, get to Mexico, try something,
[00:37:22] Andrew: you know
[00:37:23] Nathan: facts about how, how many [00:37:25] Americans don't actually travel outside
[00:37:26] Nathan: of North America
[00:37:28] Andrew: When you to be honest, the United States of [00:37:30] America is fricking
[00:37:31] Nathan: huge Yes. Yes.
[00:37:33] Nathan: I mean, I think there are even,
[00:37:34] Andrew: [00:37:35] different. Like
[00:37:36] Nathan: there are even statistics about how many people don't leave their state, their home [00:37:40] state
[00:37:40] Andrew: Yeah. I get it. Especially if you live in the Western [00:37:45] states, they're huge. There's all sorts of shit you can... I think Oregon has [00:37:50] every kind of climate other than tundra and [00:37:55] tropical rainforest
[00:37:56] Nathan: That begs the question, what are the climates
[00:37:59] Nathan: I'm trying to [00:38:00] figure out?
[00:38:00] Andrew: or whatever. I, I don't remember what they all are, but it ha- it's, it's... You cannot [00:38:05] leave the
[00:38:05] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:38:05] Andrew: and hit
[00:38:06] Nathan: And hit all, most of them,
[00:38:08] Andrew: pretty much any environment on [00:38:10] Earth. Yeah
[00:38:11] Nathan: E- even then though, I, I would find, try and find people [00:38:15] who have done that, tried
[00:38:16] Andrew: Yeah
[00:38:16] Nathan: all the climates just in, in, in, Was it Oregon, you
[00:38:19] Andrew: [00:38:20] state, yeah, if any state was probably Oregon, 'cause outdoors really big deal. But to your [00:38:25] point, even I know a lot of people who have never been to Eastern Oregon or people in Eastern Oregon who have [00:38:30] gone to Portland once or twice.
[00:38:31] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:32] Andrew: Yeah. So anyway, all [00:38:35] right. Happy Thursday.
[00:38:37] Nathan: Yes, you as well. Fun travels or
[00:38:39] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Nathan: [00:38:40] What was I looking for? Safe tra-
[00:38:41] Andrew: I'll definitely have fun in going to
[00:38:42] Andrew: Canada
[00:38:43] Nathan: Safe travels. That's what I... I don't know why I just brain [00:38:45] fart.
[00:38:45] Andrew: They're so nice and their food's better
[00:38:47] Nathan: Ooh. Shots fired.[00:38:50]
[00:38:50] Andrew: All right, take care